Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J)

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: obvert
….

I think 12 x 30 for Ki-83 is too many. I only used like 4/5 x 30 and got it in early 45. If you do 8 x 30 you'll have it in 44 for sure.

You have to think about what you're making in the end too. I don't think you can plan for making 12 x 30 (or 360/month of Ki-83). That's also a massive investment in engines, with 720/month of Ha-43 just for this plane!! [X(] The N1K5 and the A7M also use the Ha-43, so you're basically going to screw yourself making that many of these engines. I'm only making 850/month for all of them right now.

Eric,

I tend to not build as many early and mid-model planes as most. And I tend to save my supply/Hi to build final models in very high qty, all based upon my analytic view point that the IJ has finite quantity of both and what do I want to build with it. So I make a lot of inconvenience for myself within the game in '42 … I run razor thin pools until the first of my RnD projects bear fruit.

In the above scenario, '42 is going to be A6M and Nates until Tojo arrives in Sept. Yeah, I suffer with Nates because the early Oscar other than range is just not a lot better than Nate. Nate is CAP, A6M escort/sweep. Tojo replaces Nate in CAP role. '42 fighter build rate is ~ 10/day. N1K replace A6M is escort/sweep role. N1K is first model to build in high volume, but still not that high ~400/month. Ki-84 comes and that is high volume and can work all roles as can N1K. . It is also will run at ~400/month. So, end of '43 I am building ~25 fighters/day.

I totally get it. Your opponent will be tougher in the end game, and as you've mentioned, persistently aggressive in that period.

With a human opponent it's important to set the tone early, and for the Oscar it's actually critical to upgrade IJAAF fighter groups to Oscar Ic if the Allies are bringing in best airframes and making a fight of it. The Nate can escort but it can't sweep so well.

This does present some necessity for ineffeiciency if you have to then cancel the Oscar program. I've always continued on and used them for escort and low CAP. I'll look at it more closely next time and may choose to change up to the Ki-100-II as service 1 late war escort and low CAP, but maybe also I'll choose to just go with higher servicer tings and plan accordingly to defend on rail lines.

A7M improves things significantly as does Ki-83. End of '44 I plan to build at least 40 fighters/day. And yes, this is where the Ki-83 being twin engine can hit a speed bump in my planning and I go with the Ki-94 instead. The supply cost on the engines and the HI burn on the aircraft, the Ki94 can start to look pretty good even with those lousy cannons on it (4xHo-5 20mm would be so good!!! Ditto the J7W ...)

Anyway, so I give up a lot of comfort in 42/43 to allow myself luxury in 44/45. A conscious trade-off.

Any tips on J7W uses and drawbacks? I plan to use it for spot defence interception. It's range is restrictive for much else.

PS: thank you for confirming (along with Loka) that my arrival dates are in fact conservative estimates. I did a game with 18x30 on A7M a couple of times … the arrival date is opsec but it was a total game changer.

PPS: And for those who cry 'fantasy', they should remember that the A7M first test flight was 9/42 IIRC. The model was actually ready to fly 3/42 but the engines delays were the issue; specifically the 2 stage induction. If not for NIH, they could/should have had that up and running late '42 at latest, but …. a lot of allied lives were saved because they did not.

It's all a fantasy, anyway! I was looking at the Frank lately though and realised for several months the Japanese were actually making more than I am at the height of my production! They obviously had trouble staying in service and getting new parts, but there were a lot of them around in the late war.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Any tips on J7W uses and drawbacks? I plan to use it for spot defence interception. It's range is restrictive for much else.

Yeah. CAP. high %'s because the climb is not good. (80-100% instead of 60%). DUR is only 30. That means you have to cycle them to keep the numbers up. Its all about managing the ops losses with these beasts. That's the bad.

The good. What they hit dies. Even 4E. A2A losses will be low for you due to their speed. You'll use them at the top of your CAP stack with your Franks. I really wish the Devs had chosen the 6x20mm (same weight), but they went for the 4x30mm. Still C/L is 30% acc and x4 you will get a hit with almost every burst. And as I say, pretty much every hit is a kill. Oh, the best thing about the 30mm is the range = 6. That's 50% more than the browning 50. It means when attacking 4E, you get hit a LOT less.

I don't see the range helping as much A2A against P47's, I suspect that is because of relative speeds keeping engagement time low? Just a guess. But against 4E's, you will notice a lot lower losses. So, your J7W's are going take damage, but with you being on CAP, losses won't be as high. P47's though, almost every 30mm hit is a kill … and they have a long way to return, so it usually turns out that way. That damage has to be managed or you will start to fly with too many damaged planes that will turn into high Ops losses, I check my groups every turn when they are on CAP to control that. Good luck!!

[Lowpe]

So, scenario 1.

Well then, you most likely only have the ability to accelerate one fighter from the last generation.

The odds are Honshu will be strategically bombed in 1944 sometime.

The idea of a just in time production may not work.

I know NJP tried a game with a thoroughly different strategy, and that was to build vast deep pools of Oscar, Tojo, George,Frank and A6M8 and did quite well. I believe he neglected Sam, Tony and Jack but he never ran out of planes.

Quite frankly, as long as you get Frank and Sam early, and in large numbers you will most likely do well.

Counter to Lighting sweeps early: Nick, A6M5c.
Counter to P47 sweeps: 3000 Franks/George till late 1944 in a layered cap defense.
Counter to destroyer raids: Lilly dive bomber
Counter to late game deathstar sheltered invasions: ?
Late war sweeper KI83
Counter to night bombing: Irving Sa, Nick d, something...

[RangerJoe]

Counter to late game deathstar sheltered invasions: ?

How about night Kamikazi raids using armored bombers with air to surface radar for detection and targeting, along with very high pilot skills for experience, defense, and low naval attack? If you want to target the invasion, adjust the range accordingly so you don't hit the DS. But if you can hit the DS carriers, that could put them out of action for awhile if nothing else.

If patrol planes have a more effective night attack, maybe try them. Maybe even night flying boat torpedo attacks. I have used those with Catalinas effectively.

The night attacks are for two reasons: 1) less effective antiaircraft fire, 2) maybe little to no night CAP/LRCAP.

Combine that with maybe lots of probably suicidal subs laying minefields . . .

Either that, I had a Tomcat whose philosophy towards dogs was simple. Attack them if they are smaller than you, tolerate them if they are the same size as you, run away if they are bigger than you. He also had estra long fangs that protruded from his mouth.

I think that might be the best way to defeat the DS, keep it from getting so big for as long as is possible.

Either that, or as a last resort, build/capture a thermonuclear explosive device, build it into an armored sub that is quiet and can go deep, sail it under the DS and detonate. [X(] The resulting shock wave should rupture all sorts of seams in the hulls resulting in massive flotation damage. Repeat as necessary . . .

edited for spelling . . . [:@]

[DanSez]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Counter to late game deathstar sheltered invasions: ?

(comments from the back bench)

Haven't had to face this yet in the two PBEM games I have played but my minority opinion is that the creation of a super DS is a game engine cheat so the reply is to fog the bastards with a ton of 1,2,3 ship tfs including xAKLs, TKs, AMcs, anything and everything that are only going to be sunk anyway, confusing and defusing the overwhelming power of the DS and run small attack ship tfs into the mist of the invasion to kill what you can, cause collisions, disrupt - then reform what is left of your carriers, paired with whatever land based is available for a counter strike.

No rules means no rules, right?

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

So, scenario 1.

Well then, you most likely only have the ability to accelerate one fighter from the last generation.

The odds are Honshu will be strategically bombed in 1944 sometime.

The idea of a just in time production may not work.

I know NJP tried a game with a thoroughly different strategy, and that was to build vast deep pools of Oscar, Tojo, George,Frank and A6M8 and did quite well. I believe he neglected Sam, Tony and Jack but he never ran out of planes.

Quite frankly, as long as you get Frank and Sam early, and in large numbers you will most likely do well.

Counter to Lighting sweeps early: Nick, A6M5c.
Counter to P47 sweeps: 3000 Franks/George till late 1944 in a layered cap defense.
Counter to destroyer raids: Lilly dive bomber
Counter to late game deathstar sheltered invasions: ?
Late war sweeper KI83
Counter to night bombing: Irving Sa, Nick d, something...

Yep, That pretty much sums it up. [:D][:D][:D]

NF: I use Nick FB in night CAP until Randy. There just aren't a lot of IJA choices. And Nick isn't good as it is slow, but what else? Have to have night CAP.
IJN: has more choices, but I end up with Myrt and A7M mostly as single engine.

DeathStar: I haven't come up with anything in sand box that is realistic other than bleed the allies so that can't do it. The catch is how do you bleed them if they won't come out to play?
I've created sandboxes where IJ owns everything outside of NA, no losses, but the USN and Brit Navy are still intact. Playing head2head I cannot stop US-> Adak -> Hokkaido -> Honshu in late '44. The first two steps can happen so FAST. And I even know they are coming … and still cannot stop it without using extraordinary intel and/or a ton of luck.

And of course once Honshu is nuked, retaking everything (India/OZ) takes only a few months, so allies still win as long as they can create the Deathstar with +3000 fighters. Bombers are not needed.

[X(][X(][X(]

So totally agree with your assessment on DS …. [&:][&:][&:]

[rustysi]

the early Oscar other than range is just not a lot better than Nate.

Heavy CL MG's, as opposed to rifle cal MG's, makes a big difference.

the Oscar program. I've always continued on and used them for escort and low CAP.

As they become more obsolescent, this is their function.

[rustysi]

The Dinah NF, and the Randy NF.

I stated in an earlier post that these aircraft use the Ha-35, that's just wrong. They use the Ha-33. I meant to say the Nick FB, and the Irving recon. I too confuse my aircraft sometimes.[>:]

[rustysi]

NF: I use Nick FB in night CAP until Randy. There just aren't a lot of IJA choices. And Nick isn't good as it is slow, but what else? Have to have night CAP.
IJN: has more choices, but I end up with Myrt and A7M mostly as single engine.

The whole NF thing still has me messed up. Just when I think that I may have it doped out, someone throws in another monkey-wrench.[8|]

Still not sure how to resolve the issues. Planes too slow, too few groups for what seems to be a large R&D investment if I want to get something in time. Not to mention Army/Navy. What's to be done? Time to reevaluate again????

[rustysi]

'42 fighter build rate is ~ 10/day.

Are you talking both Army/Navy or just one of them?

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

NF: I use Nick FB in night CAP until Randy. There just aren't a lot of IJA choices. And Nick isn't good as it is slow, but what else? Have to have night CAP.
IJN: has more choices, but I end up with Myrt and A7M mostly as single engine.

The whole NF thing still has me messed up. Just when I think that I may have it doped out, someone throws in another monkey-wrench.[8|]

Still not sure how to resolve the issues. Planes too slow, too few groups for what seems to be a large R&D investment if I want to get something in time. Not to mention Army/Navy. What's to be done? Time to reevaluate again????

NF are a numbers game. You need to painstakingly search thru all groups that can upgrade to the NF and convert them. If you search posts by my name I did this for both Army and Navy stock game night fighters in the war room.

There are basically three generations of NF: 1st: IrvingS, IrvingSA, Nick, Dinah; 2nd Gen: Frances, Peggyd, Zero, Judy, Myrt; 3rd: Denko and Randy.

You need Irving Sa, Nick and Dinah to convert squadrons, you need the Zero to resize some of the tiny groups. For 2nd gen and later pick one...I like Peggyd to replace Nick/Dinah and Frances. Myrt has a lot to recommend it too. Randy never really gets radar, but some swear by it. Denko has sky high SR.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

So, scenario 1.

Well then, you most likely only have the ability to accelerate one fighter from the last generation.

The odds are Honshu will be strategically bombed in 1944 sometime.

The idea of a just in time production may not work.

I know NJP tried a game with a thoroughly different strategy, and that was to build vast deep pools of Oscar, Tojo, George,Frank and A6M8 and did quite well. I believe he neglected Sam, Tony and Jack but he never ran out of planes.

Quite frankly, as long as you get Frank and Sam early, and in large numbers you will most likely do well.

Counter to Lighting sweeps early: Nick, A6M5c.
Counter to P47 sweeps: 3000 Franks/George till late 1944 in a layered cap defense.
Counter to destroyer raids: Lilly dive bomber
Counter to late game deathstar sheltered invasions: ?
Late war sweeper KI83
Counter to night bombing: Irving Sa, Nick d, something...

Yep, That pretty much sums it up. [:D][:D][:D]

NF: I use Nick FB in night CAP until Randy. There just aren't a lot of IJA choices. And Nick isn't good as it is slow, but what else? Have to have night CAP.
IJN: has more choices, but I end up with Myrt and A7M mostly as single engine.

DeathStar: I haven't come up with anything in sand box that is realistic other than bleed the allies so that can't do it. The catch is how do you bleed them if they won't come out to play?
I've created sandboxes where IJ owns everything outside of NA, no losses, but the USN and Brit Navy are still intact. Playing head2head I cannot stop US-> Adak -> Hokkaido -> Honshu in late '44. The first two steps can happen so FAST. And I even know they are coming … and still cannot stop it without using extraordinary intel and/or a ton of luck.

And of course once Honshu is nuked, retaking everything (India/OZ) takes only a few months, so allies still win as long as they can create the Deathstar with +3000 fighters. Bombers are not needed.

[X(][X(][X(]

So totally agree with your assessment on DS …. [&:][&:][&:]

Obvert has done the best at extracting some price on the deathstar...and we all know his formula.

My guess is the most important planes might be Sam, Frank, Kikka, Ki94II, Ki115b. A strong NF program, yes. Judy 4 yes. The problem, is as always, there are so many different ways for Allies to win, but at stopping a late deep invasion I would take those.

[rustysi]

so allies still win as long as they can create the Deathstar with +3000 fighters. Bombers are not needed.

While I didn't have a problem per say with the 'Deathstar', are you saying the Allied player is removing his bombers to load up with fighters?

See if so, and I know you guys don't like playing with HR's, and I do get it, I simply don't wish to play a game like that!!![:@]

Does that relegate me to the AI indefinitely? I certainly hope not.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: rustysi

NF: I use Nick FB in night CAP until Randy. There just aren't a lot of IJA choices. And Nick isn't good as it is slow, but what else? Have to have night CAP.
IJN: has more choices, but I end up with Myrt and A7M mostly as single engine.

The whole NF thing still has me messed up. Just when I think that I may have it doped out, someone throws in another monkey-wrench.[8|]

Still not sure how to resolve the issues. Planes too slow, too few groups for what seems to be a large R&D investment if I want to get something in time. Not to mention Army/Navy. What's to be done? Time to reevaluate again????

NF are a numbers game. You need to painstakingly search thru all groups that can upgrade to the NF and convert them. If you search posts by my name I did this for both Army and Navy stock game night fighters in the war room.

There are basically three generations of NF: 1st: IrvingS, IrvingSA, Nick, Dinah; 2nd Gen: Frances, Peggyd, Zero, Judy, Myrt; 3rd: Denko and Randy.

You need Irving Sa, Nick and Dinah to convert squadrons, you need the Zero to resize some of the tiny groups. For 2nd gen and later pick one...I like Peggyd to replace Nick/Dinah and Frances. Myrt has a lot to recommend it too. Randy never really gets radar, but some swear by it. Denko has sky high SR.

Great info, thanks a bunch.

One follow-on question though.

You need Irving Sa, Nick and Dinah to convert squadrons

Does that include a PDU-on game?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: obvert

Any tips on J7W uses and drawbacks? I plan to use it for spot defence interception. It's range is restrictive for much else.

Yeah. CAP. high %'s because the climb is not good. (80-100% instead of 60%). DUR is only 30. That means you have to cycle them to keep the numbers up. Its all about managing the ops losses with these beasts. That's the bad.

The good. What they hit dies. Even 4E. A2A losses will be low for you due to their speed. You'll use them at the top of your CAP stack with your Franks. I really wish the Devs had chosen the 6x20mm (same weight), but they went for the 4x30mm. Still C/L is 30% acc and x4 you will get a hit with almost every burst. And as I say, pretty much every hit is a kill. Oh, the best thing about the 30mm is the range = 6. That's 50% more than the browning 50. It means when attacking 4E, you get hit a LOT less.

I don't see the range helping as much A2A against P47's, I suspect that is because of relative speeds keeping engagement time low? Just a guess. But against 4E's, you will notice a lot lower losses. So, your J7W's are going take damage, but with you being on CAP, losses won't be as high. P47's though, almost every 30mm hit is a kill … and they have a long way to return, so it usually turns out that way. That damage has to be managed or you will start to fly with too many damaged planes that will turn into high Ops losses, I check my groups every turn when they are on CAP to control that. Good luck!!

Can confirm that the J7W is murder on 4Es. Have personally experienced. Also does well against late war Allied fighters, relatively speaking.

Counter to late game deathstar sheltered invasions: ?

Well...how gamey are you looking?

Dozens of small SCTFs sent to interdict. CV TFs have a tendency to return to home port when contacted by surface forces. I'm unsure if this contact has to be of sufficient size/threat, but I don't think so. You could split the difference and use bunches of light surface craft that still form a plausible threat to lightly-protected Allied invasion TFs (E's, bigger PBs, DDs, even some SC's or CM's, etc.).

[rustysi]

Can confirm that the J7W is murder on 4Es. Have personally experienced. Also does well against late war Allied fighters, relatively speaking.

So would you recommend a red or white with that?[:D]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: rustysi

NF: I use Nick FB in night CAP until Randy. There just aren't a lot of IJA choices. And Nick isn't good as it is slow, but what else? Have to have night CAP.
IJN: has more choices, but I end up with Myrt and A7M mostly as single engine.

The whole NF thing still has me messed up. Just when I think that I may have it doped out, someone throws in another monkey-wrench.[8|]

Still not sure how to resolve the issues. Planes too slow, too few groups for what seems to be a large R&D investment if I want to get something in time. Not to mention Army/Navy. What's to be done? Time to reevaluate again????

NF are a numbers game. You need to painstakingly search thru all groups that can upgrade to the NF and convert them. If you search posts by my name I did this for both Army and Navy stock game night fighters in the war room.

There are basically three generations of NF: 1st: IrvingS, IrvingSA, Nick, Dinah; 2nd Gen: Frances, Peggyd, Zero, Judy, Myrt; 3rd: Denko and Randy.

You need Irving Sa, Nick and Dinah to convert squadrons, you need the Zero to resize some of the tiny groups. For 2nd gen and later pick one...I like Peggyd to replace Nick/Dinah and Frances. Myrt has a lot to recommend it too. Randy never really gets radar, but some swear by it. Denko has sky high SR.

There are some odd ones. Several recon groups that convert, a FB group and even a FP group that convert to NF. Make them all.

The key to NFs is using them with several hex bleed and radar. The Irving NF will travel and engage even faster planes at several hexes distance. Also, don't scrimp on pilot quality. I have 70-80exp pilots in my NF groups. I also keep layers of altitude bands covered in an area.

The Randy is good!

Here are the groups:

[awaw]

I believe Tainan Ku S-1 can also convert via A5M5d-S Zero

[jdsrae]

[&o] legend obvert, that’s saved me a few thousand clicks!

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

[&o] legend obvert, that’s saved me a few thousand clicks!

You still might have a few clicks to go for some, and I'm not sure the list is complete. I have to reference my game to see again. It's been a while since I looked at this. To complicate matters more, the groups change names in the mid-to-late war. So these are mostly the late war names. You might need tracker to sort out all of it. [;)]