Mussolini's adventures in Greece

[Mind]

Do you agree with opinion that B.Mussolini's adventures in Greece (1940-1941) were disaster for A.Hitler, because the Wehrmacht lost at least 2 weeks for invasion to Soviet Union?

[Lobster]

Because of heavy spring rains Barbarossa would have been launched into a quagmire if it went on time. It would have stalled out as soon as the roads turned to mud. What Yugoslavia and Greece did cost was equipment. Also a neutral Greece would have been nice. Hitler had already botched things with Yugoslavia. All he had to do there was make a treaty of peace with them, the same as Hungary, a Tripartite member, had already done. No coup, no problems.

[balto]

Lobster, whoa! I am not smarter, in fact, no way I am, but I 100% disagree with what you just said. If Greece was left alone (which means Yugo would be left alone), Russia would have been defeated.., Moscow taken, Gov't collapse, rail system collapse., etc.., And as we all know, you knock Russia out.., its game over for Allies.

There are several events in WW 2 for both allies and axis had went "a different way" it would have likely changed the outcome of the war. I think the "Greece thing" was certainly one of those events.

[Lecivius]

I don't think Russia would have been defeated that easily. The Germans may have taken Moscow (may), but by that time a lot of industry had been moved east. The Russians were in fact planning on falling further back. They just didn't have to. And the Russian people have a history of being invaded, and then beating the heck out of said invaders. A month would have made a difference, but no where near enough to give Germany enough time to do the job.

I may not have a lot of respect to the current political situation in Russia. But I have a LOT of respect for Russian soldiers, and people.

[Poopyhead]

Napoleon took Moscow and I seem to recall that did not work so well for him. Hitler was at war with the greatest Soviet State, The largest Empire and the richest Democracy in the world. He never stood a chance. If he had eventually forced Stalin to sign some kind of an armistice, then on 6 August 1945, Berlin would have been flat, black, burnt, dead and glowing in the dark.

[Capitaine]

Hitler was irate about Mussolini's invasion of Greece for one, glaring reason: It gave the British a casus belli to enter Greece themselves, against an Italian Army that couldn't accomplish the mission, and gave the British an opportunity to threaten the Romanian oil fields which were vital to everything. Mussolini's military incompetence compelled Germany to intervene in Greece to clean up "the mess" and resecure the oil resources, prior to a campaign in Russia. They had no choice. Mussolini was a dummkopf.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Mind

Do you agree with opinion that B.Mussolini's adventures in Greece (1940-1941) were disaster for A.Hitler, because the Wehrmacht lost at least 2 weeks for invasion to Soviet Union?

warspite1

No. From what I've read I agree with Lobster. The time saved in not going to Greece, wear and tear on vehicles, Hitler's subsequent ban on using paratroopers in their intended role etc. probably wasn't enough to make a difference to the outcome in the east.

I disagree with the comment on Yugoslavia though. "All he had to do there was make a treaty of peace".... well that wasn't just down to Hitler, the Yugoslavs had a say in that too [;)]

Of course if Italy didn't go into Greece there would have been more men and equipment available to bolster North Africa - as a counter, the CW forces would not have lost some of their best units to the Greek debacle nor the Royal Navy lost so many ships (both sunk and badly damaged) and men.

All in all I can't see a massive war altering difference.

[altipueri]

Is Hearts of Iron the only game you can play these political what if scenarios with? Most of the Matrix games are battle and operation oriented.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Mind
Do you agree with opinion that B.Mussolini's adventures in Greece (1940-1941) were disaster for A.Hitler, because the Wehrmacht lost at least 2 weeks for invasion to Soviet Union?

No.

The key issue here is not the counteroffensive per se (launched the 5 december). The key (conveniently ignored by the west during the cold war: they did not trust the Soviet sources so they relied on er... German sources rofl [:D]) was what happened before the 5 december. Errr, 700k losses inflicted on the Wehrmacht... Barbarossa derailed, beaten.

The loss of Moscow (a major transport hub) would have indeed complicated the deployment of the strategic reserves. I suspect they would have attacked from SE and NE Moscow, as per the initial pincer Soviet plan (later extended, big mistake). Target unchanged: Army Group Centre.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Is Hearts of Iron the only game you can play these political what if scenarios with? Most of the Matrix games are battle and operation oriented.

Just run a TOAW FitE2 scenario from May and throw in some weeks of mud at the start. Germany probably could have started mid June without the mud but I don't see it going away much sooner. The entire year of 1941 was one of weirdness. It was like the gods of war conspired against Hitler and his whole conquer the world thing.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Is Hearts of Iron the only game you can play these political what if scenarios with? Most of the Matrix games are battle and operation oriented.

..... It was like the gods of war conspired against Hitler and his whole conquer the world thing.

warspite1

About time. The events of 1939/1940 were like the Gods of War conspiring with Hitler to win the war; Fuhrer weather, inexplicable Allied decisions, dumb arse German moves not going ahead through sheer luck.....

[RFalvo69]

If anyone is interested in the actual "adventures" I can recommend this excellent book:

The hollow legions;: Mussolini's blunder in Greece, 1940-1941
https://www.amazon.com/hollow-legions-M ... way&sr=8-1

It covers both the political and military blunders that characterised the campaign in Greece, and it offers a wonderful insight of how Italy waged her "parallel war". Many events and decisions would be comical if they weren't tragic. It is one of my favourite history books ever.

[warspite1]

The Hollow Legions is an excellent book.

[wodin]

I never understand why Britain went to War with Germany over invasion of Poland but turned a blind eye to Russia's invasion.

As for delay due to Greece..Not sure. At some Point Stalin was going to try take West Europe and Hitler knew had to get in first. If wait till Stalin attacked would be game over quickly.

A major mistake was to not finish off UK at Dunkirk.

Also maybe if he had concentrated o n Africa that might have made a huge difference. He had to keep his nerve over Russia attacking first.

Plus maybe if Japan has attacked Russia aswell instead of USA again things may have gone very differently.

Total underestimation of Russian capability was one of the bigger issues leading to disaster. I'm not sure that through conventional WarRussia could ever really be beaten.

One other thing if the Germans had treated the Russians well again I imagine that would have been the end of Stalin and Russian Communism. We'd probably have had a similar situation as today. A unified Europe with Germany as top dog. Two Wars showed a different course was needed for Germany's dream of a United Europe with them as No1. So they went about it through diplomacy and industry.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: wodin

I never understand why Britain went to War with Germany over invasion of Poland but turned a blind eye to Russia's invasion.

warspite1

I assume you are referring to the Soviet Union's attack on Poland.

I think the British and French realised they had enough on their plate facing the Germans without making an enemy of the Soviet Union at the same time. The British always feared an attack by the Russians against India, and French and British possessions in the Middle East would also be under threat from a Russian move south.

The reality of the situation makes the Norwegian fiasco (and the 'aid to Finland' cobblers) and Gamelin's 'plan' to bomb the Caucasus airfields all the more difficult to understand.....

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: wodin
At some Point Stalin was going to try take West Europe and Hitler knew had to get in first. If wait till Stalin attacked would be game over quickly.

I never understood this weird theory. If you know the Soviet Union history and the revolutionary theories and struggles (Lubianka and gulag) of the time it's even strangest.

After the death of Lenin, there were two principal candidates. Trotsky and Stalin. Minors like Zinoniev, Kamenev and Bukharin (the theorist) supported one and then the other.

The ideological divide line was clear: Trotsky the internationalist aka let's spread the revolution; Stalin on the other hand would coin and adopt when he won the "socialism in one country" theory, which meant coexistence with the capitalist world.

The struggle was of course to death and all you need to know is that the worst insult ever in the USSR was being called a "trotskyist" [:D]

And now this [unproven] theory is telling me that Stalin was going to become suddenly a trotskyist aka spread the revolution [8D] Comrade Beria, you've got a job to do! The biggest trotskyist made it to the top [:D]

Sorry, but it does not make any sense.

Not to mention the prosaic reality. The Finnish War [remember the Red Army had been purged, even regiment commanders were targeted; divisions, armies, fronts commanders were basically annihilated] showed the pathetic state of that arm. Stalin was indeed a murderous thug but he was not an idiot.

But I still think the main obstacle would have been the trotskyist thing. Stalin patiently built his ruthless machine, a machine made to catch and kill -among others- trotskyists. And now he would tell them "look, I was kidding, we're gunna advance towards the Atlantic, I'm gunna call comrade Trotsky -in Mexico- to make sure his sound advice is listened"...*

A bit like FDR re the war. Just because you want to initiate a war does not mean you can. Stalin is no exception.

*he sent an assassin

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Hitler had already botched things with Yugoslavia. All he had to do there was make a treaty of peace with them, the same as Hungary, a Tripartite member, had already done. No coup, no problems.

But, he did. Yugoslavia signed the Tripartite Pact on 3/25/1941, so should have been on track to become an Axis minor ally. But then there was a Coup d'état on 3/27/1941. Germany then declared war on the now Allied-aligned Yugoslavia on 4/4/1941.

Historically, this begs some questions. If Yugoslavia did not sign the Tripartite Pact and remained neutral, would German have ignored it? Would Italy have ignored it? There could have come a coup and Allied alignment at any later time, which would have been a threat in the heart of the Axis rear. How long might that threat be ignored?

[Poopyhead]

Tullius, so when Stalin sent communists to Spain that was because he was a "peacenik"? They organized the resistance to Franco by seizing the passports of foreigners who came. These people were then under the thumb of Stalin's stooges when they were allowed to return to their countries. I suppose his support for Mao in China was because of the coexistence thing? His armies occupied the Baltic States, part of Poland, Finland and Romania prior to Hitler's invasion. Apologists will claim that this was necessary to protect the Motherland. Then why did Stalin occupy part of Iran? Stalin was just a big, cuddly Bear that would never have moved west. Riiight!

[UP844]

At some Point Stalin was going to try take West Europe and Hitler knew had to get in first.

He knew this fact since he wrote Mein Kampf (one of the most boring - and enlightening - books I ever read in my life).

Besides that, the Germans were able to conduct a defensive campaign from the late 1942 to May 1945 against an increasingly improving Red Army.
Do you really believe the Red Army of 1940/41 would have been able to mount successful offensive operations against the Wehrmacht at its peak efficiency?

[rico21]

ORIGINAL: Mind

Do you agree with opinion that B.Mussolini's adventures in Greece (1940-1941) were disaster for A.Hitler, because the Wehrmacht lost at least 2 weeks for invasion to Soviet Union?

I made it easy, took my chrystal ball and asked Manstein what he thought.
He replied that the three initial objectives are to take Leningrad, Moscow and Baku. The adventure in Greece wasted two weeks that would have taken Moscow before the Russian winter and especially would not have sacrificed the fallschirmjagers in Crete, they would have been dropped on Leningrad and took the city by surprise. When in Baku, the terrible Romanian army would have taken care of it.
Manstein will make a spielkrieg on this hypothesis but he confirmed to me that Hitler was a moron, Mussolini a drag and he a genius.