Battle of Savo Island

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decaro
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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: spence
How many bombs per plane are required to make an effective strike? It's not like Pearl's oil reserves were hardened targets.

If memory still serves me, Shattered Sword said the KB would launch half their aircraft in the first strike and then the other half in the second. The third strike would be just the first half of the carrier AC returning to be rearmed and refueled.

So are your sources saying that there wasn't enough bombs for half the KBs planes to return and take out a soft sitting target?

So the first strike consisted of 90 or more B5N torpedo bombers (40 carrying torpedoes and 50 more with 800 kg bombs plus whatever Cardiv 5 might have contributed (I don't know how many from Cardiv 5: Shokaku and Zuikaku). The were also some dive bombers but they only carry one bomb. That means that the first strike used up all (or close to all) of its Cardiv 1 and Cardiv 2 B5Ns so by your logic the Japanese were throw their own doctrine out the window to launch their 3rd strike using ALL of their best ship killers carrying 250 kg bombs while the location of the US carriers was unknown. NOT LIKELY.

But even if they had done so their bombs were only likely to seriously effect the fuel tanks if they scored a direct hit on the tank and then set it afire. That was not a certainty because, even though not specifically hardened, the fuel itself was not volatile at all. In addition, each tank had an earthen berm surrounding itself to contain the fuel in that tank AND to prevent the spread of fire. Obviously it did burn but one had to heat it to 140 degrees (NSFO) just to get it to act like a liquid.

So 90 B5Ns and some dive bombers (none falling victim to either American fighters or flak prior to dropping their bombs) with 2 250kg HE bombs each (or 1 bomb for the dive bombers) attacking by level bombing (per doctrine or would you rather throw that doctrine out the window too) at 8000-10000 ft and scoring a direct hit with every bomb that also manages to set the tank afire (the dive bombers dive bomb with greater accuracy but they only get one shot). Would you like to buy a bridge that I have for sale? Or maybe you'd like to bomb from a lower altitude and still count on no losses to flak or fighters. In fact, if you'd like, I can sell you a couple of bridges!

I'm not buying your bridges, or any of your arguments.

The IJN doesn't have to throw its doctrine out the window to launch a third strike with half its planes to hit stationary circles that resemble unpainted bullseye targets.

If the IJN aviators could get direct hits on battleships at anchor, land based fuel reserves should be easy targets for Val dive bombers armed with high explosives.

And there would be no need to send their best Kate "ship killers" for carriers that aren't even there.

Or are you confusing Pearl Harbor with Midway?

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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by Fishbed »

Could we please stop to disagree to agree?
In the end.
- It is acknowledged that fuel tanks & harbor facilities were on the list of targets - just at the bottom of it since the beginning ;
- It is easily explained by the fact that PH was all about sinking ships, in accordance with the doctrine of thinning out the enemy before the final battle, another motivation being that the flyboys certainly wanted to prove their point to the gun club ;
- Besides, if fuel tanks & harbor facilities had been seriously considered at all, you can guess that they would have been researched the same way the Battleship row was. Ordnance aboard the Kido Butai that day, from the 800kg AP bomb to the way torpedoes were modified was all about sinking ships, and sinking ships first and foremost ;
- Fuchida is not to be trusted as a source. He lied about something as big as his Man vs Wild expedition in the jungle in Indonesia, don't you start ever giving him credit for a genius thought over Pearl Harbor ;
- Moreover, even Nimitz and the others are not to be considered as a 100% reliable source on what would have actually happened in case of a direct strike on the fuel depots. Arguably, considering the means at hand and the tempo of operations, sinking the AOs instead of destroying the oil proper might have had a deeper effect for all we know ;
- But the point is moot: there was no third strike because US carriers were nowhere to be seen, Nagumo was a bit on the careful side (^^) and whatever tantrum Fuchida or Genda might have put out there, any third strike would have faced fierce AA, renewed fighter opposition and would have NOT targeted the fuel tanks, for the destruction of which the airgroup was ill-equipped anyway.

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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by Buckrock »

There can be no agreement until the key question is answered as to whether Mikawa could have won a strategic victory at Savo by destroying the fuel tanks.
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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by Lecivius »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

There can be no agreement until the key question is answered as to whether Mikawa could have won a strategic victory at Savo by destroying the fuel tanks.



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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

There can be no agreement until the key question is answered as to whether Mikawa could have won a strategic victory at Savo by destroying the fuel tanks.



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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by Lecivius »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

There can be no agreement until the key question is answered as to whether Mikawa could have won a strategic victory at Savo by destroying the fuel tanks.



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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Joe D.





Doesn't this mean that you doubt they had enough ordnance, or did I misunderstand your intent here?
warspite1

No, it means that the argument put forward in this forum previously was that the Japanese didn't have the ordnance capable of destroying the storage facilities (and the fuel within) - not that they didn't have enough bombs left after the two strikes.

But ordnance is "military supplies including weapons, ammunition, combat vehicles and maintenance tools and equipment."
warspite1

I'm not sure I follow what you mean by this but you could just swap ordnance with a word you've used so:

No, it means that the argument put forward in this forum previously was that the Japanese didn't have the weapons capable of destroying the storage facilities (and the fuel within) - not that they didn't have enough bombs left after the two strikes.

As said, I don't know to what extent that is true, only that an argument was made in a thread previously that the Japanese couldn't have destroyed the storage facilities with what they had.
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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

No, it means that the argument put forward in this forum previously was that the Japanese didn't have the ordnance capable of destroying the storage facilities (and the fuel within) - not that they didn't have enough bombs left after the two strikes.

But ordnance is "military supplies including weapons, ammunition, combat vehicles and maintenance tools and equipment."
warspite1

I'm not sure I follow what you mean by this but you could just swap ordnance with a word you've used so:

No, it means that the argument put forward in this forum previously was that the Japanese didn't have the weapons capable of destroying the storage facilities (and the fuel within) - not that they didn't have enough bombs left after the two strikes.

As said, I don't know to what extent that is true, only that an argument was made in a thread previously that the Japanese couldn't have destroyed the storage facilities with what they had.

You don't need an armoring piercing bomb to take out a fuel tank! Any high explosive ordnance should easily do the job.


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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Joe D.




But ordnance is "military supplies including weapons, ammunition, combat vehicles and maintenance tools and equipment."
warspite1

I'm not sure I follow what you mean by this but you could just swap ordnance with a word you've used so:

No, it means that the argument put forward in this forum previously was that the Japanese didn't have the weapons capable of destroying the storage facilities (and the fuel within) - not that they didn't have enough bombs left after the two strikes.

As said, I don't know to what extent that is true, only that an argument was made in a thread previously that the Japanese couldn't have destroyed the storage facilities with what they had.

You don't need an armoring piercing bomb to take out a fuel tank! Any high explosive ordnance should easily do the job.
warspite1

Not my specialist subject. As said, the arguments put forward previously appeared sound. I don't know if they were correct or not as I don't know enough about it. But you see why just saying 'fuel tank' makes me question that comment?

Annoyingly I can't find the previous article, so until I get some evidence that states what was possible then I'll leave it as is. Bottom line is that they Japanese didn't go for the fuel tanks - it would be just nice to know if it was ever really a viable option.
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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by rockmedic109 »

Would it have mattered much if the Japanese had destroyed every single one of the tanks? Ignore whether they could or if it was possible. Would it really have changed the war much?

Wouldn't the USN just use Tankers and Oilers to hold the fuel while the tank farm was rebuilt? I am no expert, but isn't this what they did at Ulithi?

I imagine it would've slowed USN ops for the first month or so and caused a diversion of resources but I wouldn't think it would cripple the fleet much more than it already had.

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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

Would it have mattered much if the Japanese had destroyed every single one of the tanks? Ignore whether they could or if it was possible. Would it really have changed the war much?

Wouldn't the USN just use Tankers and Oilers to hold the fuel while the tank farm was rebuilt? I am no expert, but isn't this what they did at Ulithi?

I imagine it would've slowed USN ops for the first month or so and caused a diversion of resources but I wouldn't think it would cripple the fleet much more than it already had.

warspite1

Well I don't think I've ever encountered anyone that thought differently - although there are those that believe the Japanese could have successfully invaded the Hawaiian Islands so there may be some people out there that do......

To anyone with a more than passing knowledge of the War in the Pacific, regardless of what happened when, and regardless of how much they optimised performance, once the Kido Butai were given the green light to attack Pearl, the war had only one outcome for Japan... and that was not a good one.

But like with Guadalcanal, so with Pearl and Midway, it is interesting to look at what could have happened and what effect an alternate tactical/strategic outlook could have had in delaying the inevitable.
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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by Alfred »

This is an early AE thread on the question whether Nagumo should have sent in a third strike.
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2278270&mpage=1&key=third
 
Probably not the one warspite1 has in mind.  That one may very well date back to classical WITP.
 
Armchair strategists always have the benefit of hindsight.  It makes it so much easier to criticise historical figures whilst not being burdened with real practical considerations which decision makers must grapple with.  Nagumo had to balance several considerations.
 
1.  There is no solid evidence that a third strike had been factored into the planning for the Pearl Harbor strike.  One of the tasks of a professional historian is to subject post facto claims to assess whether the claim is an invention or is supported by other corroborating evidence.
 
2.  The entire point of the operation was to eliminate the American fleet in order to provide a window of opportunity for Japanese amphibious operations to proceed in safety.  Even if all the American battleships and carriers had been sunk in the first two waves, the entire operation would have been a disaster for Japan if the B had been sunk in the process.  Without a KB to support subsequent amphibious operations, the threat from the remaining British (he doesn't know Force Z is to be destroyed in 2 days time), Dutch and Australian (and American) would interfere with the Japanese timetable.
 
3.  Balancing the above Nagumo was faced with the fact that the American carriers were somewhere out there.  Would they arrive on scene whilst a third strike was out?  Would his air losses from a third strike be sufficiently low to enable him to confidently meet the American carriers on the long trip back to Japan?  Even if the KB suffered only damage (ie no ships sunk) in an encounter with the enemy, would the KB still be in condition to meet the timetable?
 
4.  All this balancing for potential benefits of a third strike which were not his objective.  IF absolutely no risk were associated with a third strike, then the ancillary benefit of hitting the fuel tanks would be the icing on the cake.  But make no mistake, the Japanese were not dependent on destroying the fuel tanks to achieve their objectives.  The SRA would not have been captured any quicker had the fuel tanks been destroyed by Nagumo.
 
 
We all know the famous line from Churchill that Jellicoe was the one man who could lose the war in a single day.  Nagumo was in a similar position.  That is pressure which armchair strategists are never subjected to.
 
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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by Fishbed »

One mustn't forget either that by destroying the whole battleline and sending the rest packing to CONUS, the Japanese removed one of the main reasons for fuel expenditure in the PacFleet in a matter of a few minutes. In the end, the US suffered fuel shortages in SOPAC early not because of available fuel, but chiefly because of a limited number of tanker/AO assets theater wide. Once again, once one agrees with the fact that the Japanese were not going for the fuel anyway, had they gone for it, people would still argue that sinking fleet oilers Neosho and Ramapo would have had a larger impact than hitting the fuel itself. Not even mentioning the subs. Or the repair ships and yards. And again, and again...

Hell, in the end, you realize that save for dropping an actual A-Bomb on Pearl Harbor, considering the intel available to them at the time and the uncertainties, there was simply no way Japan could have expected to get much more from Pearl Harbor than it already did, which was still enough to stun the world at the time. Aka, this discussion is really a tad bit sterile, but that's just my two cents... [;)]
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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

I'm not sure I follow what you mean by this but you could just swap ordnance with a word you've used so:

No, it means that the argument put forward in this forum previously was that the Japanese didn't have the weapons capable of destroying the storage facilities (and the fuel within) - not that they didn't have enough bombs left after the two strikes.

As said, I don't know to what extent that is true, only that an argument was made in a thread previously that the Japanese couldn't have destroyed the storage facilities with what they had.

You don't need an armoring piercing bomb to take out a fuel tank! Any high explosive ordnance should easily do the job.
warspite1

Not my specialist subject. As said, the arguments put forward previously appeared sound. I don't know if they were correct or not as I don't know enough about it. But you see why just saying 'fuel tank' makes me question that comment?

Annoyingly I can't find the previous article, so until I get some evidence that states what was possible then I'll leave it as is. Bottom line is that they Japanese didn't go for the fuel tanks - it would be just nice to know if it was ever really a viable option.

How could it not be a viable option when Mikawa had a cruiser surface fleet and Nagumo a carrier task force at their disposals?

And no one has to be a specialist to realize that high explosives and flammable fuels go "Boom!"
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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

One mustn't forget either that by destroying the whole battleline and sending the rest packing to CONUS, the Japanese removed one of the main reasons for fuel expenditure in the PacFleet in a matter of a few minutes. In the end, the US suffered fuel shortages in SOPAC early not because of available fuel, but chiefly because of a limited number of tanker/AO assets theater wide. Once again, once one agrees with the fact that the Japanese were not going for the fuel anyway, had they gone for it, people would still argue that sinking fleet oilers Neosho and Ramapo would have had a larger impact than hitting the fuel itself. Not even mentioning the subs. Or the repair ships and yards. And again, and again...

Hell, in the end, you realize that save for dropping an actual A-Bomb on Pearl Harbor, considering the intel available to them at the time and the uncertainties, there was simply no way Japan could have expected to get much more from Pearl Harbor than it already did, which was still enough to stun the world at the time. Aka, this discussion is really a tad bit sterile, but that's just my two cents... [;)]

Not just stun; more like shock.

Sterile? Consider that by sinking Battleship Row, Nagumo forced the US to embrace commerce raiding and carrier warfare -- two strategies that won the war.
And the subs that raided Japan's supply lines still had the fuel to do so until the rest of the fleet could come on line.
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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by Fishbed »

Sterile it is, more so than any Ive come across recently. What you just wrote, again, has nothing to do with my previous point. I do not question Pearl Harbor as a turning point, I question the usefulness of keeping this discussion alive about something that didn't happen and wasn't going to happen for all the reasons we gave you already.

You were told several times, backed by actual work & sources, that the tank farm wa not a primary nor even a secondary asset on the target list, nor on anybody's mind on the attacking side, nor that easy to destroy or even damage in the hypothesis of a third raid - that wouldn't have targeted them anyway. The only questionable pleasure or knowledge you seem to find in this topic is the harassment of Warspite1 by twisting his words and abusing his good manners, and it starts to build a bit into an ugly sight.
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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by Buckrock »

Just for relevance, the responses to Joe D. in relation to a third Japanese strike destroying the fuel storage facilities ashore at Pearl Harbor so far have been either it would have been a difficult task or that the Japanese would have been unlikely to even target them, except for Warspite1, who claimed he'd seen convincing arguments elsewhere that the third strike did not have the ordnance to destroy the fuel storage facilities anyway. All Joe D. appears to have been doing in most of his questions to Warspite1 since is to try to clarify in what way did the third strike lack the ordnance for the task. Seems a fair enough thing to do for a response he received in a thread he started.

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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by Fishbed »

Well, we certainly don't read this the same way, nor with the same spectacles. Have fun!
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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by Buckrock »

And good luck with finding your aircraft elevator speeds for the CVs.[:)]

Or have you found them already?
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RE: Battle of Savo Island

Post by Fishbed »

Well I am not going to OT in here ;)
But no. No hard data, only approximations & deductions from actual reports and video footage.
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