diving subs... again

[LLv34Mika]

Sorry, I have to ask again because I can not believe it.
Again I have a sub surrounded by 6 or 7 subs so it will not be able to escape. The sub has level 1 my destroyers have no ASW upgrade so that should mean a diving chance of 70%.

I am trying to sink that damn thing for 5 or 6 turns now! Hardly doing any damage... ok, I don't really understand why destroyers are so weak when it comes to attacking an already spotted sub that is not diving away but I can live with that.

But what I don't get is why this thing keeps diving away. Not one time every turn. Even 6 or 7 times in a row. Not just once, again and again. As it seems I can only do dany damage if my destroyers are placed around the sub and the sub wants to get away and runs into a surprise attack.

What I also noticed: sometimes I can attack and then I also can make a second or even third attack but once the sub starts diving away a single time it seems to dive again and again and again and again...

Please change something! Please!!! That is so annoying. Make them strong, make them hard to detect, make them devastating attackers vs bigger ships, everything fine. But please have a closer look at this issue.

As already mentioned before it would be a nice compromise if the sub can not dive anymore at 0 supply or something like that.

Sure, it is no problem to sit around and let the sub run into a destroyer every turn. But in silent mode they sometimes get away. Would be also ok. But what is more annoying is that you need 4 - 5 ships to locate a sub and have the chance (a very small chance!) to attack it. That means one sub can keep almost all or at least half the destroyers busy. And so the other subs can have their free lunch in ports and around the British island. And if the Kriegsmarine can get undetected they can sink 5 destroyers in one turn because they always know where you are... desperately trying to sink a single stupid sub with 0 supply, no morale, no readiness, maybe even at str of just 2 or 3. A pretty cheap bait.

I just don't want to believe that this was intended...
Now I'll stop whining and start the game again

Thanx,
Mika

[Taxman66]

How about invest in ASW.
I've found that ASW 0 Destroyers aren't very good vs. subs. The best is to just run up next to them and stop them from raiding for a turn.
At level 1 ASW they are at near equal footing vs. Sub 1, so at that point gang attacks will wear them down.
At level 2 ASW they are superior to Sub 2, but not by much and much better vs. Sub 1.
At level 3 ASW they can take on level 4 or maybe even level 5 subs.

Other options include: The Motor Torpedo Boats, The Escort Carriers and Maritime Bombers. The later 2 are also greatly helped by at least ASW 1.

[LLv34Mika]

I know that they are not "very good" and I can live with that. Fact is that the results I get are not possible!
That's like seeing 99 times "red" in a row when playing Roulette.

There is something wrong with the sub diving thing.

[thekman]

I agree with you. Seems the destroyers are very weak. Unless that is the point, so you have to invest in ASW. Since the subs were sinking alot of ships earlier in the war years.

But is a motor torpedo boat that much better in the real war then destroyers? (They are in this game.) Just wondering if that were the case in the real war (not the game.)

[LLv34Mika]

the sub diving chance is 60% afaik and increases/decreases by 10% with every level of modern subs/ASW

So in my case I should see a 70% diving chance according to what the manual tells me. And that is simply not true. I should get one hit with every third or fourth destroyer. I can't even count the number of how often I have seen a sub sitting there diving 5, 6, 7 or more times.

Again, I have to say that my problem is not that the destroyers do almost no damage (I don't like it but can live with it). My problem is that the diving chance percentage is definitely NOT correct.

And to me it even seems that a sub is almost impossible to hit once it started diving. In my last game I had 5 or 6 destroyers around a sub and attacked it for 4 turns not getting a single attack. Just divers. There must be something wrong with the calculations of the diving chance.

[Dorky8]

I thought the dive was 40% +/- 10% per research 60 seems way to much. The worst for me is how 0 supply subs continue to dive and block supply.

[Professor Chaos]

What's weird to me is the losses destroyers regularly take when attacking subs. According to Wikipedia only 10 US destroyers were lost to German submarines in the entire war.

[LLv34Mika]

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

I thought the dive was 40% +/- 10% per research 60 seems way to much. The worst for me is how 0 supply subs continue to dive and block supply.

AFAIK the dive chance was 40% but was changed to 60% because the ASW and modern subs modifiers were not working in the first versions.

As said... 60 is ok for me if that are 60. Just counted it again... 7 destroyers, more than 5 turns and the only good hits were passive hits when the sub tried to get away. Last turn I got 5 dives in a row again before I finally scored that last hit and sunk that thing.

Sorry but it can't be serious. I really have to use my entire destroyer fleet to sink one sub in several months??? If I wouldn't know the location of the sub that might be ok but I know it and can do nothing. That's ridiculous.

[Dorky8]

Subs also gain experience way to easily by blocking supply, Its much harder for destroyers to get the same exp. The unrealistic superiority of subs leads to very aggressive unrealistic tactics.

Subs have an impact in Europe game but usually aren't game deciding. Some major changes are necessary for the global game or it will be a big problem.

[LLv34Mika]

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

Subs also gain experience way to easily by blocking supply, Its much harder for destroyers to get the same exp. The unrealistic superiority of subs leads to very aggressive unrealistic tactics.

Subs have an impact in Europe game but usually aren't game deciding. Some major changes are necessary for the global game or it will be a big problem.

Again I have to say that is not the problem. Only the diving thing. Don't forget that a sub sitting on a convoy line loses 1 supply every turn. That makes it pretty useless for fighting purposes soon. That part is really well balanced. Every surface ship can do the same but of course it is harder for British ships to gain XP because there are less and much shorter convoy lines.

Btw... the british subs have the big advantage too. Hard to destroy and can reach the convoy line in one turn --> only one turn away from a port to get full supply again and back to the raiding area.

So really... just the always diving "bug" (I'm still convinced that IS buggy) is annoying for me.

[Dorky8]

Again. If they were to change the base dive from 60% to 40% would that please you? Thats good because it is 40%. It started at 20% then changed to 40%.

Man Up!! The diving isn't that bad its the supply that makes no sense.

[LLv34Mika]

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

Again. If they were to change the base dive from 60% to 40% would that please you? Thats good because it is 40%. It started at 20% then changed to 40%.

Man Up!! The diving isn't that bad its the supply that makes no sense.

Not sure what is the correct dive chance but let's assume it is 40% and was just 20% before.

That would be another proof that this thing is not working properly! 40% and the subs I see dive 18 out of 20 times that is far away from 40%. And it is no coincidence. It happens again and again and again.

And yes, we both agree... a sub with 0 supply shouldn't dive away all the time. I can live with both solutions:

- no diving at 0 supply (dive chance can be 40% or 60% before but 0% when supply is 0)

- Diving chance stays at what it is but then it has to work! Right now it does not work as it should. Tested and demonstrated/prooved too many times.

Would be great to have a feedback from our staff. Bill? Hubert? Anyone reading this?

[Dorky8]

I agree many of the outcomes in diving and diplomacy seem strange. I will keep record of my sub events if you will (attacks /dives at -1, 0 +1)and we can circle back in a month or two. Cant really do diplomacy.

If you would like to do this study let me know.

That way Bill & Hubert have hard data.

[nnason]

There is a TV show on FIOS I think called "Hell Boats" about US and German submarines during WWII. The are true stories so in the two cases I have watched the boats survived. In both cases the boats had extraordinary success despite very aggressive attacks by US and Japanese anti-submarine flotillas. It was clear that the level of experience of the two adversaries was the deciding factor. Experienced subs against average attacked subs got away. Of course this doesn't tell the story of the experienced subs that lost.

Anyway the crux of my thought is could the issues discussed in this thread be inexperienced destroyers against experienced subs?

[LLv34Mika]

AFAIK xp has no influence on diving or hitting

[Dorky8]

If a few people keep track of attacks and dives and we gather a few hundred results we will know if there is an issue.

No experience has no influence on dives just battle results.

Would you like to gather the results?

[Markiss]

Bottom line is, they always do whatever screws you over the worst. Recently, I was forcing my way into the med with the allies and had to fight my way through the Italian navy supported by several German subs. In the narrow passage, my opponent had his subs directly in front of his surface fleet, preventing my fleet from getting access to his surface combatants. I had to get the subs to move, so I attacked them with destroyers, thinking they would dive giving me a clear path to his ships. Wrong. They took attack after attack, taking a point or two of damage each time, but never diving. They remained in place blocking my navy for several turns, while I got beat up by his air force. I eventually got through, but the delay had devastating consequences in the long run.
Just goes to show... [8|]

[PvtBenjamin]

Thanks Bill & Hubert for improving the sub dynamics in v1.16