Hi. I have a question about how the decision to take an OpFire shot is determined by the game engine, as the manual tells when it's made, but not how.
Let me explain the situation. My KmpfGrp is fighting in Stalingrad. Two enemy tanks are spotted, both KV-1.
Fortunately, I have two tanks who are already in position to ambush the KVs, should they keep moving. Both tanks are from my 2nd Armor Platoon and are the two best tanks in the platoon.
One is the platoon leader, 1Lt Stolz, who has exp 86, and 11 kills. The other is Sgt Weber who has exp 89 and 15 kills. Both are only below 90 exp because they were just upgraded to Mk IVs and have fought in 9 consecutive battles.
Both of my tanks are stationary. Lt Stolz has all of his base 5 shots available. Weber has 3, as he has just got kill 16 by killing a bunker.
The two KVs, if they advance, have to pass a road junction that my two tanks have LOS too. My tanks are facing the junction, at about 400 yards from it. Both of the KVs are spotted by other units of mine, and my platoon is in contact with higher HQ.
That's where my turn ends.
AI turn:
KV 1 enters the junction. No OpFire. It leaves the junction immediately.
KV 2 enters. No OpFire. It swings it's turret at my panzers, leaving flank armor open. It proceeds to take 5 shots at Sgt Weber. Two of them hit, no damage. However, neither of my tanks make *any* return shots.
Now, as Sgt Weber's had two tanks shot out from under him, I'll concede he and his crew might be supressed enough from the two hits to not return fire.
However, why doesn't the other tank fire? It's got all it's ROF, clear LOS, and no suppression. And a flank shot.
So, the question is how does the game decide when it's ok for a unit to Opfire? I'm 99 percent sure that if it had been reversed, the AI woulda got 2 shots on lead tank, 2 on my second, and then return fire for each of my shots, least till I hit them, so I'm quite curious why my tanks did not even take 1 single shot at the enemy.
Alex
A question for Paul about OpFire
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
A question for Paul about OpFire
"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.
Yep, they were set at max.Originally posted by Mumdaan:
Did you happen to check their maximum range to fire setting? (select unit, press Y?) If i change any of my units to hold fire until close range i seem to always forget to change it back
Alex
"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.
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Paul Vebber
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OPfire is random When a unit moves, or fires the opfire routine (the same one for both youand the AI) checks each unit that has an LOS to the moving or firing unit.
THe "problem" is si that individual units have no "situational awareness" so there is nothing other than random chance that determines when and at what target Opfire occurs. The only difference is that the AI often gets 3 opfire chances and the human only 2 to help counter the fact that the human has "situational awareness".
THe "problem" is si that individual units have no "situational awareness" so there is nothing other than random chance that determines when and at what target Opfire occurs. The only difference is that the AI often gets 3 opfire chances and the human only 2 to help counter the fact that the human has "situational awareness".
So....this would explain why my tanks always get OpFire when enemy infantry moves or shoots, but rarely when enemy armor does the same? Granted, the AI usually moves infantry first, then vehicles; but, too many times have I had to say "nyet" to the tankers OpFire. "Wait for the tanks, comrade. Do not waste shots on foot soldiers at 1000 meters."
Is there a possibility (given the limited nature of the coding as it stands) to assign priority OpFire to units, either hard-coded (say as Armor fires at Armor/Bunkers, then Infantry, then Soft Vehicles), or as a selection choice for the player (preference screen button for Basic/Priority OpFire)?
Sure would be nice to NOT have to restrain my tracks from shooting at every fleeing truck/crewman or infantry at 20+ hexes......
Is there a possibility (given the limited nature of the coding as it stands) to assign priority OpFire to units, either hard-coded (say as Armor fires at Armor/Bunkers, then Infantry, then Soft Vehicles), or as a selection choice for the player (preference screen button for Basic/Priority OpFire)?
Sure would be nice to NOT have to restrain my tracks from shooting at every fleeing truck/crewman or infantry at 20+ hexes......
Originally posted by Flashfyre:
Is there a possibility (given the limited nature of the coding as it stands) to assign priority OpFire to units, either hard-coded (say as Armor fires at Armor/Bunkers, then Infantry, then Soft Vehicles), or as a selection choice for the player (preference screen button for Basic/Priority OpFire)?
Sure would be nice to NOT have to restrain my tracks from shooting at every fleeing truck/crewman or infantry at 20+ hexes......
I want to revamp this,cause it's the same idea I had in mind yesterday, when seeing my tanks shooting at...the flies in a pbem game.
would it be possible to add, let's say in the Headquarter Menu near the set range button, a "Choose target button", maybe limited to armour/non armour ?
This would eliminate all this trucks running around to trigger tanks/gun emplacements fire during pbems games...
Federico "Resisti" Doveri
But how is that random number determined? What calculations does the engine make to determine it. I ask cause it happened again the next turn.
An enemy assault squad - a cute trick of Marauders, pops up next to an aux Mk IV. No prob, as I've got infantry covering the tank. In this case a 0 suppression, 97 exp command squad.
The assault squad gets a suprise assault and immob's the Mk IV. No prob there, as they popped out of a cellar or something for that one.
However, no me OpFire.
The squad makes a second - no effect assault. Still no OpFire from the inf who is adjacent to the enemy squad.
So, the Soviet's make a third assault and destroy the Mk IV and again no OpFire!
I'm not dinging the OpFire system, I like it. I want to understand, though, how it works. Does the AI get bigger numbers to 'roll' against? It gets more checks, 3 to 2 and that's fair, for the reasons you've stated. But I'm seeing a trend of clear OpFire chances for my units that good, unsupressed, units aren't taking. If I were using militia, I'd not be asking. I'd expect them to miss chances. But these are quality units, unsupressed, with full shots and line of sight so it's quite frustrating when they don't shoot.
Alex
An enemy assault squad - a cute trick of Marauders, pops up next to an aux Mk IV. No prob, as I've got infantry covering the tank. In this case a 0 suppression, 97 exp command squad.
The assault squad gets a suprise assault and immob's the Mk IV. No prob there, as they popped out of a cellar or something for that one.
However, no me OpFire.
The squad makes a second - no effect assault. Still no OpFire from the inf who is adjacent to the enemy squad.
So, the Soviet's make a third assault and destroy the Mk IV and again no OpFire!
I'm not dinging the OpFire system, I like it. I want to understand, though, how it works. Does the AI get bigger numbers to 'roll' against? It gets more checks, 3 to 2 and that's fair, for the reasons you've stated. But I'm seeing a trend of clear OpFire chances for my units that good, unsupressed, units aren't taking. If I were using militia, I'd not be asking. I'd expect them to miss chances. But these are quality units, unsupressed, with full shots and line of sight so it's quite frustrating when they don't shoot.
Alex
"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.
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Paul Vebber
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- Location: Portsmouth RI
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I couldn't find the spot in the code where the "shots" are diced for, but i think its a similar system to "special opfire" roll something like Die((12-shots remaining)*range*multiplier*(suppression/10+1))< experience where teh multiplier is situationally dependant I think. But at range 1 its nearly automatic.
You assume the unit defending the tank "knows" there is an enemy unit next to it. The game only knows that 'n' of your units have an LOS to the assulting enemy and each of those checks to see if it Opfires - IF that unit was the only unit with an LOS and it fails the roll, then nothing happens. (ie the enemy unit snuck up on the tank from such an angle that your infantry did not have a good line of fire do to "micro terrain" in the hex.
I tried to reproduce this in a test and found it very difficult. What terrin were the units in? When did you spot the enemy unit? It could have been that you did not spot it until the first assault took place.
I could not move even a 120 experience Russian unit in clear terrain next to a tank and adjacent infantry without opfire occuring. Are you sure that enemy unit and not another still hidden enemy unit actually made the assualt? Did the infantry have any ammo left? (I've had that one bite me late in a game...
)
In general it is nearly impossible to move adjacent in the open to an enemy infantry unit and not get shot at! Especially multiple times like that, so either something else was going on you were not aware of, or you got REALLY unlucky...
I've found in weird situations like this if I immediately save teh game, then open it in Fred';s editor, or change it to a scen file and open it in teh game editor I find that often there are other units present I am not aware of and attribute strange behavior to the wrong unit!
[ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]
You assume the unit defending the tank "knows" there is an enemy unit next to it. The game only knows that 'n' of your units have an LOS to the assulting enemy and each of those checks to see if it Opfires - IF that unit was the only unit with an LOS and it fails the roll, then nothing happens. (ie the enemy unit snuck up on the tank from such an angle that your infantry did not have a good line of fire do to "micro terrain" in the hex.
I tried to reproduce this in a test and found it very difficult. What terrin were the units in? When did you spot the enemy unit? It could have been that you did not spot it until the first assault took place.
I could not move even a 120 experience Russian unit in clear terrain next to a tank and adjacent infantry without opfire occuring. Are you sure that enemy unit and not another still hidden enemy unit actually made the assualt? Did the infantry have any ammo left? (I've had that one bite me late in a game...
)In general it is nearly impossible to move adjacent in the open to an enemy infantry unit and not get shot at! Especially multiple times like that, so either something else was going on you were not aware of, or you got REALLY unlucky...
I've found in weird situations like this if I immediately save teh game, then open it in Fred';s editor, or change it to a scen file and open it in teh game editor I find that often there are other units present I am not aware of and attribute strange behavior to the wrong unit!
[ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
[QB]I couldn't find the spot in the code where the "shots" are diced for, but i think its a similar system to "special opfire" roll something like Die((12-shots remaining)*range*multiplier*(suppression/10+1))< experience where teh multiplier is situationally dependant I think. But at range 1 its nearly automatic.
Cool I was hoping to see something like this
I tried to reproduce this in a test and found it very difficult. What terrin were the units in? When did you spot the enemy unit? It could have been that you did not spot it until the first assault took place.
It was urban. I already was assuming - since it was an infiltrating assault team (the sov unit) that it snuck up ok. I didn't mind the pre first assault non op fire It was the after the second one non fire that was annoying
I could not move even a 120 experience Russian unit in clear terrain next to a tank and adjacent infantry without opfire occuring. Are you sure that enemy unit and not another still hidden enemy unit actually made the assualt? Did the infantry have any ammo left? (I've had that one bite me late in a game...)
Yep to both. I killed the squad in my next turn with the same unit that didn't OpFire
In general it is nearly impossible to move adjacent in the open to an enemy infantry unit and not get shot at! Especially multiple times like that, so either something else was going on you were not aware of, or you got REALLY unlucky...
The latter I bet. Still, it was lucky, in a way, cause now I can look above and see how the game determines it which I was curious about in the first place, so my question's now answered, and to that I say Thanks!
Alex
[QB]I couldn't find the spot in the code where the "shots" are diced for, but i think its a similar system to "special opfire" roll something like Die((12-shots remaining)*range*multiplier*(suppression/10+1))< experience where teh multiplier is situationally dependant I think. But at range 1 its nearly automatic.
Cool
I was hoping to see something like this I tried to reproduce this in a test and found it very difficult. What terrin were the units in? When did you spot the enemy unit? It could have been that you did not spot it until the first assault took place.
It was urban. I already was assuming - since it was an infiltrating assault team (the sov unit) that it snuck up ok. I didn't mind the pre first assault non op fire
It was the after the second one non fire that was annoying I could not move even a 120 experience Russian unit in clear terrain next to a tank and adjacent infantry without opfire occuring. Are you sure that enemy unit and not another still hidden enemy unit actually made the assualt? Did the infantry have any ammo left? (I've had that one bite me late in a game...
)Yep to both. I killed the squad in my next turn with the same unit that didn't OpFire
In general it is nearly impossible to move adjacent in the open to an enemy infantry unit and not get shot at! Especially multiple times like that, so either something else was going on you were not aware of, or you got REALLY unlucky...
The latter I bet. Still, it was lucky, in a way, cause now I can look above and see how the game determines it which I was curious about in the first place, so my question's now answered, and to that I say Thanks!
Alex
"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.
I experienced a similar situation (Battle, 1944, june Anzac vs Soviet).
I had two Shermans in the bush (side by side) above an east/west road that ran between bush (one hex wide gap for the road).
The soviet tank (T-44??) proceeded along the road until it was adjacent to both Shermans at which point it turned and destroyed both tanks without a return of fire (nor for that matter a pre-emtive shot from the shermans).
More on the situation. LOS was limited such that until the Soviet was at 1 hex (adjacent) neither side could see each other.
My tamks hadn't moved, nor fired for at least 2-3 turns.
Both sides were using defalt troop quality.
Meanwhile, whenever I moved vehicles through cover to get a shot at (AI) Soviets, they always got to shoot at me - first shot hit and kill before targeting the next Sherman.
It got to the point that flanking movements required the use of higher elevations to save my shermans when they tried to move into LOS.
I had two Shermans in the bush (side by side) above an east/west road that ran between bush (one hex wide gap for the road).
The soviet tank (T-44??) proceeded along the road until it was adjacent to both Shermans at which point it turned and destroyed both tanks without a return of fire (nor for that matter a pre-emtive shot from the shermans).
More on the situation. LOS was limited such that until the Soviet was at 1 hex (adjacent) neither side could see each other.
My tamks hadn't moved, nor fired for at least 2-3 turns.
Both sides were using defalt troop quality.
Meanwhile, whenever I moved vehicles through cover to get a shot at (AI) Soviets, they always got to shoot at me - first shot hit and kill before targeting the next Sherman.
It got to the point that flanking movements required the use of higher elevations to save my shermans when they tried to move into LOS.
Hi Alex, I had the same problem with op fire, my troops never fired against AI during it's turn so I decided to turn off the "op fire" button setting the time to "0" seconds.Originally posted by Alexandra:
Hi. I have a question about how the decision to take an OpFire shot is determined by the game engine, as the manual tells when it's made, but not how.
Alex
with this setting my troops react to AI movement, hope this can help.
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