The ubiquitous 8 inch gun

Chiteng · Post by **Chiteng** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:49 pm

When did this particular naval gun become so popular?

Bobthehatchit · Post by **Bobthehatchit** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 6:02 pm

Chiteng wrote:When did this particular naval gun become so popular?

Suppose it was around the time of the washington treaty, when guide lines where set down on ship designations, ie destoryers, CL 6" guns x tonnage CA 8" guns x tunnage ect.

8" Guns give good range and good hitting power to a ship, several 8 inch crusiers would make a mess of a BC. The RN used them alot because it of the pre war empire, cruiser had longer legs and were more economical and than battleships for projecting power.

An eight inch crusier is a fairly powerful ship, even a treaty ships packs a good bit of punch. So if one nation has one the rest will to.

Bobthehatchit · Post by **Bobthehatchit** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 6:33 pm

Also, as with the battleships of the time, cruiser main armaments went single cal. with one type of main guns + dp and aa guns as secondary armament.

Just my 2 pence worth, i might not be right but thats my opinion for what is worth!

dwesolick · Post by **dwesolick** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:07 pm

In a PBEM game I'm playing (as USN) I recently engaged in a (rather one-sided) slugfest with an IJN taskforce of two BBs (Kongo class, I think) and other ships. My biggest ships were CAs and therefore the biggest weapons I brought to bear were 8" guns.
At no point in the battle did the eight inchers so much as scratch the paint of the IJN BBs. I scored multiple hits, including numerous hits at 2000 yards with no results. This included belt armor, deck armor, and even tower armor hits (how thick is TOWER armor anyway???) with ZERO penetrations.
QUESTION: Are these results normal? I'm asking not out of sarcasm, but because I genuinly have no idea. I realize that an 8 inch gun is no match for a 14 or 16 incher, and can accept the fact that there would be few or no penetrations at, say, 10,000 yards...but 2000? Anyone know?

BTW, if the above is normal/historical, please chalk this post up to the usual whiny bitching that comes from the losing side in a battle!

Bobthehatchit · Post by **Bobthehatchit** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:25 pm

dwesolick wrote:In a PBEM game I'm playing (as USN) I recently engaged in a (rather one-sided) slugfest with an IJN taskforce of two BBs (Kongo class, I think) and other ships. My biggest ships were CAs and therefore the biggest weapons I brought to bear were 8" guns.
At no point in the battle did the eight inchers so much as scratch the paint of the IJN BBs. I scored multiple hits, including numerous hits at 2000 yards with no results. This included belt armor, deck armor, and even tower armor hits (how thick is TOWER armor anyway???) with ZERO penetrations.
QUESTION: Are these results normal? I'm asking not out of sarcasm, but because I genuinly have no idea. I realize that an 8 inch gun is no match for a 14 or 16 incher, and can accept the fact that there would be few or no penetrations at, say, 10,000 yards...but 2000? Anyone know?

BTW, if the above is normal/historical, please chalk this post up to the usual whiny bitching that comes from the losing side in a battle!

Not really sure, the Kongo class ships were not true tinclads, nore where they BB regardless of what the IJN might have thought, but when they modernised them the belt armour and citadel and deck armour was upgraded. Even if eight inch round did not breach the belt armour they would have made a right mess of the upperworks.

PzB74 · Post by **PzB74** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:15 pm

Bobthehatchit wrote:Not really sure, the Kongo class ships were not true tinclads, nore where they BB regardless of what the IJN might have thought, but when they modernised them the belt armour and citadel and deck armour was upgraded. Even if eight inch round did not breach the belt armour they would have made a right mess of the upperworks.

If you read the story of Hiei and Kirishima on the http://www.combinedfleet.com/atully03.htm - you'll find a lot of interesting facts.

"Despite all this, the HIEI certainly gave as good as she got. Finding SAN FRANCISCO only 2,500 yards away she turned left and the two flagships passed each other on opposite courses, main guns thundering. As she swung to port her guns bracketed SAN FRANCISCO at point-blank range, largely perforating the superstructure. Rear Admiral Callaghan and three of his staff were killed and Captain Cassin Young mortally wounded when the bridge was shattered by both Japanese and Americanshells, and the SAN FRANCISCO staggered out of formation and out of the fight. Before she did so, she or a comrade struck a most fatefuland crucial blow. At approximately 0154 two large shells, probably from the SAN FRANCISCO, struck HIEI on the starboard quarter and punched a 2-meter hole in the shell. As a result, water began to enter the steering gear room under the pressure of her battle speed. The water shorted outthe generators, and HIEI suddenly lost power steering."

8" guns certainly could cause a lot of damage if they got close enough to ship with battlecruiser armour. In return just a few 14" shells would be enough do disable a heavy cruiser.

Modern BB's stood much better up to 8" shells though. The South Dakota is a good example of this:

"The KIRISHIMA hits the SOUTH DAKOTA with a single 14-inch round that explodes on her aft No. 3 turret's barbette. The SOUTH DAKOTA also takes seventeen 8-inch hits from the ATAGO and the TAKAO, plus five 6-inch and one 5-inch hits.The hits prove the worth of the SOUTH DAKOTA's armor, but make a shambles of her superstructure, tear up radar and communications cables, shatter her radar plot, disable her gun directors and destroy four of her six fire-control radars."

Fires and superficial damage but no structural damage is usually the result.

Not sure how well UV simulate this if the Kongos don't take damage from multiple 8" hits from 2000 yards? Should be quite devastating as history shows. The damage would not be enough to sink them, but belt armour should easily be penetrated and cause some flooding.

Veer · Post by **Veer** » Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:46 am

dwesolick wrote:In a PBEM game I'm playing (as USN) I recently engaged in a (rather one-sided) slugfest with an IJN taskforce of two BBs (Kongo class, I think) and other ships. My biggest ships were CAs and therefore the biggest weapons I brought to bear were 8" guns.
At no point in the battle did the eight inchers so much as scratch the paint of the IJN BBs. !

General rule of thumb is that BBs are designed to withstand an equal weight of shell to their main armnament. Like the Yamato was designed to withstand 18" shells and such like.

Exceptions to the rule are many ofcourse - the German pocketbattle ships in particular. But even in the Battle of river plate, the G Spee was never in danger of being sunk or wrecked by the british cruisers - they just damaged her enough to slow her down and allow the Big guns of the George V to come up. And the British cruisers took quite a bit of beating themselves.

HMSWarspite · Post by **HMSWarspite** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:02 pm

Veer wrote:General rule of thumb is that BBs are designed to withstand an equal weight of shell to their main armnament. Like the Yamato was designed to withstand 18" shells and such like.

Exceptions to the rule are many ofcourse - the German pocketbattle ships in particular. But even in the Battle of river plate, the G Spee was never in danger of being sunk or wrecked by the british cruisers - they just damaged her enough to slow her down and allow the Big guns of the George V to come up. And the British cruisers took quite a bit of beating themselves.

Mixing your drinks my son. George V wasn't anywhere near the Plate. Graf Spee ran in to Montevideo harbour, and then scuttled herself, there were still only 3 cruisers outside (Ajax, Achilles, and Cumberland, Exeter having been damaged badly, and gone to the Falklands)

Your point about PB armour is correct, but they were never battleships, and the Germans never claimed they were.

Snigbert · Post by **Snigbert** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 1:56 am

"In a PBEM game I'm playing (as USN) I recently engaged in a (rather one-sided) slugfest with an IJN taskforce of two BBs (Kongo class, I think) and other ships. My biggest ships were CAs and therefore the biggest weapons I brought to bear were 8" guns.
At no point in the battle did the eight inchers so much as scratch the paint of the IJN BBs. I scored multiple hits, including numerous hits at 2000 yards with no results. This included belt armor, deck armor, and even tower armor hits (how thick is TOWER armor anyway???) with ZERO penetrations.
QUESTION: Are these results normal? I'm asking not out of sarcasm, but because I genuinly have no idea. I realize that an 8 inch gun is no match for a 14 or 16 incher, and can accept the fact that there would be few or no penetrations at, say, 10,000 yards...but 2000? Anyone know?"

Crushing defeat...crushing...I feel your pain.