April 18th, 1943

[Zorch]

Dumb question - Did transport planes back then have seat belts?

[rockmedic109]

A .50 cal wound through the torso will be fatal very quickly. The tissue for a couple inches around the wound channel will be pulled, torn, destroyed. Even if through some fluke of fate, his hand locked onto the sword in a death grip, it would not be strong enough to hold against the forces that would be generated by the impact. Furthermore, those muscles will begin to relax at or very shortly after death which was likely close to being effectively instantaneous after the bullet wound. I don't see any way that the laws of physics and physiology can be coerced into the result reported.

[Rafid]

I think most of the arguments have been put forward and many of the good. But unfortunately many people seem only interested in confirming their pre-existing bias.

Chickenboy, your description is very graphic, but seems to be mainly interested in painting the most gruesome picture possible to discredit the alternatives. There are many proven cases of plane crash victims with little outward injury and even survivors. Notice that the report also says that Yamamoto was cast clear of the plane and still in his seat. In most of the above mentioned cases, this is a key point, since leaving the main wreckage also gets you into an environment with far fewer sharp and hard objects. Notice also, that the seat can shield the body from some impacts with branches and so on. These impacts might than even work in your favor as they deaccelerate you. Newton's second law works for everybody, but if the kinetic energy is reduced over a greater distance (or several occasions) it’s not imperative to experience '150+G' in the process. As a most extreme example you might want to read up the story of Juliane Koepcke, who fell from a plane that broke up 2 miles above the Peruvian jungle. Not only did she survive, but her injuries were light enough that she walked back to civilization (or at least people) on her own for 10 days! According to what some people write here she must have pulverized on impact instead.

On the other side, while Ogaki's diary is a rare example of a frank, (as far as checkable) honest, and unembellished personal account, it's very important to realize that he didn't see Yamamoto himself. The search party might have already made up an 'official version' by the time Ogaki was told. So Ogaki’s proven honesty is not a direct argument toward the ‘in repose’ version.

Without conclusive evidence in either direction we must accept uncertainty in this regard. There is little to gain by everybody taking his favorite version and then claim that anybody else is totally unreasonable.

[rockmedic109]

Still in his seat. Still holding his sword? The plane broke apart in such a way that the flooring came off with the seat to provide something for the sword to rest on?

You said it. The report was second hand. I loved the stated account and believed it when I was much younger, but as I got older and more cynical, my views have changed.

Without conclusive evidence, I go back to my knowledge and experiences. Maybe I just get lied to so often at work that I have become naturally skeptical. I just can't believe the story....even if I want to.

[Lecivius]

If Yamamoto was hit by a .50, in any way, he would not be sitting there holding a sword. Under any circumstances, let alone a plane crash. I don't care if he was in an 6 pt harness, encased in bubble wrap, and then cocooned in an armored ball.

Period.

Anyone that believes otherwise has no real understanding of the ballistics of that weapon, and/or has never seen the effects of that weapon personally.

I am not discounting Ogaki's report. Honestly it makes no difference decades later. But Yamamoto did not get hit by one, let alone 2 rounds from such a weapon and sit there holding a sword after being ejected. There is a better chance that aliens flew down and spirited him away.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Rafid
According to what some people write here she must have pulverized on impact instead.

"Must". No. I'm just citing the most common outcome. Say 99.9% of the time. If you want to hang up on semantics and singleton anecdotal evidence to say that no one can really say, then I'll just disagree. I think it's far more likely that Yamamato's body was brutalized by the bullets / crash / fire than not. You call it uncertainty, I call it near certainty in the absence of physical proof to the contrary (to prove the 0.1%).

Without conclusive evidence in either direction we must accept uncertainty in this regard. There is little to gain by everybody taking his favorite version and then claim that anybody else is totally unreasonable.

Nah. You don't want to be convinced, you don't have to be convinced. I'm convinced. It's not that you're being unreasonable, it's just that you're nearly certainly wrong.

I know this guy that says that gravity doesn't apply to him. A buddy of mine (a really swell guy) never likes to say bad things about anybody, so he didn't want to disprove him or argue. So, I guess in the absence of any documentation from a neutral arbiter, we really don't know, do we? I guess it could go both ways.

[US87891]

I have had to write those letters home. Believe me, it is a torture beyond the very pits of Dante’s deepest inferno. It was my responsibility, my duty, to keep them safe and return them home; it was thus my responsibility to explain (as if I could) how and why I failed; and it was my responsibility, my duty, to still “keep them safe” and return them to their loved ones, spiritually and emotionally, if not physically. In other words, you are going to say things that keep and exalt the spirit of the man, despite the loss, so that his memory has balm for its pain. Some of you have done the same, and know this.

Yamamoto was Ugaki’s superior; Yamamoto was Ugaki’s fellow officer; Yamamoto was Ugaki’s friend. The gory details were for their two-one-seven equivalent. Ugaki was Yamamoto’s Chief of Staff, so it was his job, his responsibility, his “duty”, to keep his chief safe, physically, and spiritually. Ugaki’s statement was not an historical, forensic, document. Ugaki was “writing the letter home” for his friend.

Please give him a break. Thank you. Matt

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Kursk1943
For sure only bushido bullshit and Jap propaganda again or have you ever seen an honest Japanese?

Nice! What is it about this form that attracts this sort?

And while I know Matrix allows the use of the racial slur, "Jap", why do you guys stoop so low?

Do you also use the N-word in your daily lives as you do the slur against our Japanese brothers and sisters?

[LargeSlowTarget]

I think Kursk1943's remark isn't meant to be a racial slur - it's sarcasm and he's actually defending Ugaki. As I interpret his post, he says that when people survive a crash into the ocean at full speed, it is perhaps not impossible that Yamamot's body remained relatively unharmed when crashing into the jungle at reduced speed.

The report of the search party who found Yamamoto's body might have been "doctored" and the video I have posted may be embellishing the death of Yamamoto.

However, it is not unheard of that people survive catastrophic events while others in the immediate vicinity of the survivor died. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... _incidents for example. Other examples include survivors of 9/11 when the WT collapsed. I have read a story of guy who was on the 22nd floor and who survived with nothing more than a fractured foot - however, I don't know if this is true or an "urban legend".

What I know for sure is that my stepbrother once dozed off while going 130km per hour on a German Autobahn, veered to the right, broke through the guard barrier and went down a slope doing several barrel rolls before being stopped by a tree. He was able to climb out of the wrecked car himself with nothing more than a scratch in his face and a broken pinkie.

So, personally I do not discount the possibility that someone - Yamamoto's dead body included - may remain relatively intact after a crash. It requires perhaps a miracle, but these happen from time to time.

I just wanted to post a reminder of the date and selected the video more for the nice CGI then for any accurate or not portrayal of events. The video doesn't even show how Yamamoto's body has been found - was surprised that it sparked this discussion. I have been deeply moved by Matt's post.

[Kursk1943]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Kursk1943
For sure only bushido bullshit and Jap propaganda again or have you ever seen an honest Japanese?

Nice! What is it about this form that attracts this sort?

And while I know Matrix allows the use of the racial slur, "Jap", why do you guys stoop so low?

Do you also use the N-word in your daily lives as you do the slur against our Japanese brothers and sisters?

Some people don't seem to be able to identify irony and sarcasm. Shouldn't have posted anything. I do not need to be suspected as a rascist.

[rockmedic109]

I am living proof of surviving that which you are not supposed to survive. Either that or this is purgatory. But even though I survived, the topography of my body has changed significantly though I still retain all my limbs and basically look intact. A trained eye will pick out several changes that denote the prior trauma. And if I take my shirt off, it will be glaringly obvious that something is not right....or that I am an albino Klingon!

I have seen bodies that looked more or less in the proper shape.....unless you knew what to look for and inwardly cringe when you understand what you are looking at. I remember that cringe and the sights that have caused it. Far more clearly than I really like. While I can make a case for the untrained eye to find someone "sitting" in their seat after a crash looking intact {unlikely but I can think of a scenario that would present like this}, I cannot think of any possible way his sword stays in his hand. And if his seat {and body} are no longer in the fuselage, the chances of his body maintaining some semblance of normal shape drop sharply, and the sword staying in his hand certainly becomes impossible.

I have no doubt that the Japanese cleaned up the report to look better. And I don't blame them nor think unkindly about it.

[rustysi]

Have you seen the physical damage done to the human body by multiple .50 slugs?

No, but I've seen a recent show called 'Triggers' on cable where they were using a Ma-duce to disassemble bowling balls. Does that count?[:D]

[rockmedic109]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Have you seen the physical damage done to the human body by multiple .50 slugs?

No, but I've seen a recent show called 'Triggers' on cable where they were using a Ma-duce to disassemble bowling balls. Does that count?[:D]

I've met a few people as dumb as bowling balls!

[Anachro]

I was going to go into more detail, but have decided not to as I don't think it's appropriate. Nonetheless, when the Malaysian Airlines flight was shot down over the Ukraine a few years ago, there were still some victims whose bodies were relatively intact, sitting in their seats that had ejected from the plane. Obviously, the bodies had suffered all sorts of damage, internal and external, and were grisly to look at, but they were intact rather than obliterated. It's imaginable, certainly possible, that Yamamoto's body was intact and still in its seat, especially since the plane was lower to the ground and flying at a lower speed than the MA flight. However, I do not doubt Yamamoto's final repose looked far worse than "head furrowed down as if deep in thought."

[rustysi]

I've met a few people as dumb as bowling balls!

Only a few, I consider that a plus.[X(]

Did I just say that out loud?[:D][8|]

[rockmedic109]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I've met a few people as dumb as bowling balls!

Only a few, I consider that a plus.[X(]

Did I just say that out loud?[:D][8|]

I wrote that wrong. It was supposed to be "dumber" than a bowling ball.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Kursk1943

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Kursk1943
For sure only bushido bullshit and Jap propaganda again or have you ever seen an honest Japanese?

Nice! What is it about this form that attracts this sort?

And while I know Matrix allows the use of the racial slur, "Jap", why do you guys stoop so low?

Do you also use the N-word in your daily lives as you do the slur against our Japanese brothers and sisters?

Some people don't seem to be able to identify irony and sarcasm. Shouldn't have posted anything. I do not need to be suspected as a rascist.

"I was only kidding". Sorry, no sale.

[Fishbed]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


"I was only kidding". Sorry, no sale.

No, really Mate. Read again. He's defending Ugaki and poking fun at the idea that everything Japanese as a source has to be tainted with Bushido or bullshit. Leave him alone, he's innocent [&o]