Tips/strategies/tactics for establishing a defensive front

[ladner]

Have only played a couple of games and I am just starting my first game as the Germans. Obviously as the Russians establishing a defensive front is not the main emphasis, although I have learned the hard way as was pointed out in a earlier thread about entrenchment the dangers of overextending yourself. The German AI seemed to be extremely aggressive about launching counter attacks, even early in the battle, against any overextended units, especially if an overrun result could be achieved. Have witnessed first hand the agony of having precious tank units chewed up by the AI upon achieving an overrun CRT and then running off to fight another day. Where is the NKVD when you need those Guard infantry to march faster (just kidding now ).

Ok I have strayed off topic, but what are some of the strategies that are employed as a defender? I have frequently set up what I thought were good positions only to get steam rolled by the AI soviets in my new game.

[Rob Gjessing]

First of all you will have noticed that its hard to defend in Korsun Pocket - unlike in the Ardennes Offensive. The main reason for this is terrain! Will talk about this in a tick..

But some of the other things which constituate a good defence are:

- defend in a straight line - this limits the number of combat shifts the enemy can get by protecting your flanks
- rivers, use them to your advantage, defend behind them it has an effect on combat (check the CRT's)
- weather, this has an effect on combat across rivers (check the CRT's) and also on supply..
- ART, make sure you have ART that are defense capable in support of your defending units
- Try to limit the chances of your units being overrun (more on this in a tick)

But as I said the terrain is the most important factor here. The reason its harder to defend in KP is because of all of the clear terrain! Looking at the CRTs' you should be able to see that its easy to attack someone defending in the clear. I would like to say never defend in the clear... but thats impossible. And often it goe against some of the advice above.. like trying to keep a straight line of defence. Lack of units also dont help

In KP because most of the map is made up of clear terrain you really want to take advantage of any hills, woods, urban or anything else thats not clear. Defend at this points.. esp urban terrain. Nothing like some street to street fighting.

Defend on the overside of rivers.. but watch the weather conditions, snow can turn rivers to ice which means that they dont always have much of a benefit defending behind them.

Also blow bridges.. and use your interdiction to choke bottlenecks to slow any advance and cut supply. Remember defending isnt always about shooting a gun back at someone.

Watch the weather.. is it snow this turn, is it going to be mud next turn.. take that into account.. sometimes it may be better to retreat.. allow the enemy to advance, and then they find next turn in the mud they have advanced too far and are now out of supply.

Also, the best form of defense is attack (they say - but not always).. but if someone has advanced too far.. they let them know about it.. give any isoloated units a bit of a hit.

Often the advice when it comes to defense contradicts itself.. defend in a straight line.. but dont defend in the clear, defend in urban terrain, or use rivers effectively. Well all of that is good.. but there never is a straight line of urban terrain behind a river!! I wish.

So most of all use your judgement..

As a last point, limit the chances of overrun. Overrun is only available when the terrain is right (ie: its easier to occur in clear terrain), the defenders are weak and not dug in.

I think the rules for overruns are (forgive me if this isnt 100% - thats my disclaimer - but I think its right), that :

If the defenders units have at least 3 combat steps and includes a unit that is dug in and contributes to providing an entrenched bonus to the rest of the stack, then no overrun can occur.

Whats all of that mean? Ok.. so you must have at least 3 combat related steps within the stack (ie: doesnt have to be from one unit, it could be from a number of units), and at least one of the units must be entrenched and providing an entrech bonus to the rest of the stack.

As a side note, when a unit entrenches it provides an entrench bonus to the rest of the units in the stack. This bonus is based upon a percentage of the entrenching units strength. So if the entrenching unit has 1 step, then its bonus will be less then 1 and it may not provide any entrench bonus to the stack. So just be aware of that..

So be sure, make sure any 2 stepped unit is the one that entrenches

Edited to include this last comment:

So after all of that huffing and puffing.. no there is no real answer to your question... which is what makes the game so much fun.. because there are so many different strategies to employ.. good luck!

[ladner]

Thanks for the pointers. I did not know about the rule regarding number of steps and the effect on overrun, that is something that I will have to be more cautious about in the future. My bad experiences have been the pounding that some of the two step German infantry regiments take before you can disengage from the Soviets during the initial maelstorm of the attack.

Speaking of rivers how in the heck does anyone get the German offensive going in TAO especially with 47th PzK trying to get across either the Clerf or the Our (my battlefield geography is a little rusty)?

[Rob Gjessing]

I assume you are talking about the opening German move in TAO - and blowing all of those pesky strongpoints away?

Here is the best tip I can give you! And everyone else out there reading..

Fire up a game of TAO and play as the Allies, set the Germans to Normal Computer and then study what the Germans do! What you will be watching is a scripted opening move from SSG AI programmer Roger Keating himself.. that first turn is Roger playing. And now copy it!

If anyone can better the opening move please let me know and I will make it available on the wacht am rhein website.

Note that the computer setting for the Germans should not be set to "Computer -" as that setting doesnt use that scripted opening move of Rogers.

[BrubakerII]

And now copy it!

Hey that's cheating!

I have found with a bit of practise, it is possible to eradicate many of the strongpoints using overrun techniques. The main principle of this is (and this apploes to the opening Russian move in the east in KP) to conduct overruns on the storngholds using the LEAST number of units MOVED as possible. This is often most easily done using artillery in a combined attack. Mathematically what this is doing is using the least of your finite number of moves to achieve an outcome and therefore leaving a higher number of choices in the rest of your moves

After exhausting these possibilities, if you also 'sacrifice' some of your slower units (ie infantry) on the remaining strongholds by combining them with artillery, you will hopefully have a few holes with which to enhance move your armour.

Works for me

[Rob Gjessing]

And often the whole thing can fall apart if you dont move or attack with the correct one or two units.. for example what you do with the German 39 Gren on hex 44,29 is pretty crucial - in terms of what and what strongpoint should he attack..

[Duncan Maggs]

I am not happy with the Ardennes scenario (TAO3) in Korsun Pocket as it stands. Admittedly I have only played it once against Rob during the playtesting of KP but it rapidly became a slugfest. The extra realism imparted by the updated and much improved game interface which were primarily designed for KP have not imo made TAO3 a better game.

The weather prevents most of the German 7th Army attacking at all in the first few days because combat across a river is forbidden in mud turns. This was a n offensive relying on surprise! I have no problem with the concept of a slow build up e.g. by clearing away US strongpoints along the river line but units should have some chance of attacking even at low odds.

Now that armour units may dig-in this skews the game defensively as does the extra step (fourth) for many of the US units. Retreat results were vital to dislodge a defender. I know that overruns are possible against more units than before and at lower odds but this doesn't redress the balance.

On the plus side the new reserve activation system is good and would enable the German to make a fight of it if he could reach Bastogne but Houffalize was as far as I got!

This is not a gripe from an old gamer who is stuck in the world of TAO2 and regards it as perfect because I'm not and I don't. However it did have a fluidity of play which i think captured the early stages of the Ardennes battle. The Korsun Pocket scenarios manage to maintain this tradition of weak defender and strong attacker despite the problem of forming the pocket.

I am willing to play anyone at TAO3 with me as the US player and see how far they get as the German player. The new version favours the defender and I do not see that the attacker has been given any new weapons in his armoury.

I am sure there will be much debate about this game and its possibilities and i hope that we can tweak it and it may continue to evolve. i haven't explored the editor yet so maybe I will be able to change things so they are more to my liking!

[Fallschirmjager]

Best advice I can give is...dont leave gaps..no matter how thin you have to spread yourself make the enemy fight for every piece of ground they take

[JoshF]

I fiind that defending every inch of ground is counter productive. If the hex in question is not an objective hex, then there is really no need to hold it in the face of the enemy. However, this should be judged against the inherent defensive value of the hex in question: wooded, village, hill, etc. If the hex is clear, don't even bother defending it, rather let your enemy take it and then counter attack. Also, I have read that some here like solid defensive lines, which don't make much sense in KP a lot of the time. In the central area of the eastern portion of the map, the Russians vastly out number the Germans to the point that leaving individual units to fend for themselves invites their destruction. Rather make sure your units are concentrated in stacks of at least three with one unit entrenched to avoid nasty overrun. If the computer tries to outflank or surround you, you have some options: runaway, because usually the area you are defending is just not that important, or try to launch counterattacks with your previously concentrated defensive forces. Any thoughts?

[Rob Gjessing]

Duncan..

I agree that TAO3 plays differently to TAO2. I also tend to agree that its a harder game to play as the Germans then in TAO2. But thats about it.

In my AAR against Chris I have had no real problems taking Houffalize and Bastogne.. nor did he in the game that he played as the Germans against me (remember that AAR where he smashed me ) - also in a game I am currently playing against Nickel, as the Germans I have taken both Bastogne and Houffalize and also in a game where he is the Germans he has just taken Houffalize and would have taken Bastogne this turn if I hadnt chosen to retreat - which I might add now means that my allied units there are about to be cut off and will probably be decimated.. and it was against my better judgement that I didnt retreat.. one which I will pay the consequences for - as he will get Bastogne in the next few turns.

That being said, I think its quite rare that the Germans dont get Bastogne in this game. Sure I agree there will be games where the Germans dont get those vital cross roads or other locations.. but thats the beauty of this game.. depending upon where you drive your forces or make your stand will mean that it plays differently.

Notwithstanding any of that.. I had toyed with the idea of using the scenario editor to make a TAO2 variant of TAO3 - if you know what I mean. And I still plan on doing that.. so that the scenario plays a little bit more like TAO2 did. Thats not to say that TAO2 is better then TAO3 or vice a versa.. its just a reflection that the two really are different games! Which was my first learnings when playing TAO3 - dont play it as you necessarily would a game of TAO2.

Over the next few months we hope to see people really getting stuck into the editor and using it to make different variants.. Steve Ford from SSG has just recently sent me a copy of a variant he made of KP where the majority of the German reinforcements are based upon alert points - we hope to make that one available on wacht am rhein in the next few days..

I spose what I am taking a long time to say is, yes TAO2 and TAO3 are different games to a greater degree.. but at the end of the day if you think one of the scenarios/battles in KP doesnt play the way that you want it to play.. thats the whole reason we editor was included!

Change it

PS: In terms of Natural Justice, Im more then happy to start another PBEM game with you, with me as the Germans.. yeah?

Which reminds me.. Steve Ford from SSG is looking for someone to play him a game of KP.. he has posted an message in the PBEM forum on Wacht am Rhein (www.wargamer.com/wachtamrhein) - if anyone feels up to it.. head on over and respond to his request - reply to the forum as he is having a problem with his email account at the moment.

[BrubakerII]

I think the TAO3 scenario does need a little balancing and this is easily done by fiddling some of the values in the editor. I am sure once people play it through a few times the changes necessary will naturally appear and dedictaed Arndennes plays will come up with a mod.

[Rob Gjessing]

yeah like I said.. Im going to do a TAO2 variant... remove some of the strongpoints.. esp those ones way up north.. I want the allies to have more pressure on their line up there.. may fiddle around with objectives too.. well I will have to do be honest if I remove those strongpoints.. its going to make significant changes to the game play..

[Nickel]

I like the challenge of TAO3, especially against a human player. There are many new vital little tricks that one must learn to play well. The extra steps in INF & ARM usally mean that the attacker can hit longer in overuns w/out running out of steam. Stacking of ARM & INF that are of equal steps is important. Keep track of your shock INF and try to use them in overuns. Repair them afterwards even if they self repair, they are your step takers that can protect your ARM from taking hits. This new version of TAO will cause you to become good at combined arms attacks or it will probably be a little tough to win.

[ladner]

I like the challenge of TAO3, especially against a human player. There are many new vital little tricks that one must learn to play well. The extra steps in INF & ARM usally mean that the attacker can hit longer in overuns w/out running out of steam. Stacking of ARM & INF that are of equal steps is important. Keep track of your shock INF and try to use them in overuns. Repair them afterwards even if they self repair, they are your step takers that can protect your ARM from taking hits. This new version of TAO will cause you to become good at combined arms attacks or it will probably be a little tough to win.

Nickel thanks for the insight, I thought in TAO2 that steps would be taken from the attacker with lowest attack strength, which if you were the Krauts basically the Volksgrenadiers were your cannon fodder. So if I am interpreting your post correctly in KP/TAO3 it is the units with shock capability that take the step losses first? I remember launching an attack as the Germans in KP with one of the infantry divisions on the western map edge (this is if you take the Dnepr as North) and the 503 Schw Pz Bn it is was the precious tigers that took the step loss.

[Nickel]

Was the tiger the unit with the highest number of steps and lowest strength or was it alone in the hex? The KP manual is correct. The unit with the highest number of steps and the lowest attack strength will take the step loss in combat. What I was getting at is how you can improve your ability to maintain attack strength turn to turn, especially for overruns by grouping your shock INF with the correct ARM units in attacks so that you maintain the strength of the ARM units. I have made as many as 4 overruns against a single hex and still had my ARM at full strength as well as most of my INF on the following turn through proper stacking and good use of replacements after the battle. Try to figure out what sequence you want the hits on your units to take place. This will help you understand who to stack with whom. A good place to get this info and study the unit strengths is by starting a human against human game at neutral settings without fog of war. Hope this helps.

[Belisarius]

The forum ate my reply...

Anyway, I just wanted to emphasize Nickel's post, that's the way it works. I've saved a few key tank btns down to their last step simply by moving INF units with two or more steps left into the same hex...

Can you say 'cannon fodder'... :p

[ladner]

Was the tiger the unit with the highest number of steps and lowest strength or was it alone in the hex? The KP manual is correct. The unit with the highest number of steps and the lowest attack strength will take the step loss in combat. What I was getting at is how you can improve your ability to maintain attack strength turn to turn, especially for overruns by grouping your shock INF with the correct ARM units in attacks so that you maintain the strength of the ARM units. I have made as many as 4 overruns against a single hex and still had my ARM at full strength as well as most of my INF on the following turn through proper stacking and good use of replacements after the battle. Try to figure out what sequence you want the hits on your units to take place. This will help you understand who to stack with whom. A good place to get this info and study the unit strengths is by starting a human against human game at neutral settings without fog of war. Hope this helps.

The 503rd Sch Pz Bn was by itself for the attack, guess that is a newb mistake. Well I'll state the obvious, but after playing a couple of games KP/TAO3 is definitely a radically different game than TAO2. I probably should have spent more times on the tutorials/reading the manual, there are definite subtelties with the shifts due to shock attack and overrunning.

I have also learned, the hard way of course, that if you leave a two step unit exposed the AI will make you pay and will launch an attack to eliminate the unit at all costs. At times I have wondered if the AI is too aggressive in this regard.

Thanks again for the pointers.

[Nickel]

The AI likes deadmeat, especially if it's worth a lot of points or has some strategic value, at least from my experience. Knowing this, you may get some ideas as to how to make this work to your advantage! KP/TAO is defintely a more advanced war game than was TAO2. Playing the tutorials, helps a lot in learning the attack methods. Keep playing and learning, this is a really cool game. Keep posting questions, somebody here probably knows the answer.