The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry

[mussey]

The presence of the engineer unit boosts the supply available at the air base? Like they act like a supply depot or a supply unit or something?

Kind of, sort of, yes... but only for that hex (?) WITP uses engineer air bases that kind of do this (and much more). If plausible, this would allow invading forces to occupy an air base and quickly turn it around for friendly use...

[Edit], and if you think about it, are not engineers similar to supply units in that they improve the infrastructure so that more supplies can flow through? (Way outside the box).

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: mussey

The presence of the engineer unit boosts the supply available at the air base? Like they act like a supply depot or a supply unit or something?

Kind of, sort of, yes... but only for that hex (?) WITP[-AE] uses "engineer air bases" that kind of do this (and much more). If plausible, this would allow invading forces to occupy an air base and quickly turn it around for friendly use...

I've got a WITP-AE game going on right now against a master player and he's teaching me a lot. Um...I'm learning to put all the base ground units in the invading TF all together because the INF can capture the island ( and the airfield, and the mess hall, and the guard shack at the gate ) but it takes the AF troops to service the planes. Load the bombs, fuel the planes, fix the bullet holes, etc. And the SeaBees can repair all the damage to the buildings and fill the holes in the runway, get the phone service working again, etc. It takes a team to make it all happen.

[mussey]

Larry & Hellen, you'll get a kick out of this. Due to fascist NATO aggression a new border and internal security system has put in place. This includes x18 border bns (fixed), x20 militia rgts (fixed), x25 mobile security. The Czechs have some too.

[Hellen_slith]

Here is the map at the end of NATO turn 5

[Hellen_slith]

ORIGINAL: mussey

Larry has something up his sleeve.

LOL. Of course he does. He's an evil genius. And you stole his goat by taking Karl Marx Stadt. Now that you took it, what are you going to do with it and how are you going to get out?

Going to swing for the fences. I've found those helos are very handy behind the lines there, so SAS is going on a little foray. Trying to disrupt as much flow of reinforcements as I can, while leading as many others on a rabbit hunt.

Meanwhile, I managed to squeak through some of the central lines around the tip of the Fulda Gap and have got some recons going around there ... trying to cut as much supply as I can, and just general chaos (Peenemunde to harass the Northern Group and distract any more flow toward Hamburg.)

Still a draw (by points) at this point, and it looks like I need about 600 more VPs before I can even think about a marginal victory. The 101st Airmobile "Screaming Eagles" will soon be ready, and that will help my cause immensely.

Second Armored "Hell On Wheels" is finally almost ready to enter the fray, as are the 82d All Americans. So w/ those three divisions on line and coordinating, I should be able to wreak even more havoc over the next few turns. I hope

With this being WP turn 6, we have definitely entered into the "middle game" part of the war. It will be interesting to see WP move, I am expecting that his Group North (Linengrad / Baltic) will move toward center, and of course he still has many units back toward Moscow that will be moving forward.

Good game!!

[Hellen_slith]

ORIGINAL: mussey

Larry & Hellen, you'll get a kick out of this. Due to fascist NATO aggression a new border and internal security system has put in place. This includes x18 border bns (fixed), x20 militia rgts (fixed), x25 mobile security. The Czechs have some too.

JMHO, I think the EG "fortress" icons along that road there might be a bit too strong. I mean, I can see some Irregulars posted there (a la the Norwegian Irregulars) for EG and Cz, but the fortresses seem a bit much. WP already has tons of materiel to be able to reinforce those hexes ... which they should be fr. turn 2 .... To me, that little seam has always been sort of the "sticky" point for both forces.

Great scene!!

[Hellen_slith]

Hey wait a minute. This PDF pertains to "The Next War" and we've already got one of those scenarios. Are we going to convert this and give it a different name or something?

Yes, we shall call it ... The Next NEXT War 1989 and include Yugoslavia and Afghanistan and make it 72 moves in full Tension mode, "Iron Man" style (w/ an obligatory 17 move build up).

Now THAT would be AWESOME. We need more ORBATs to fill in all the reinforcements that would come on line in a scene like that. Throw in some CSV-like options for planning reinforcements, and you've got a hell of game.

Just dreaming

H

[cathar1244]

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

ORIGINAL: mussey

Larry & Hellen, you'll get a kick out of this. Due to fascist NATO aggression a new border and internal security system has put in place. This includes x18 border bns (fixed), x20 militia rgts (fixed), x25 mobile security. The Czechs have some too.

JMHO, I think the EG "fortress" icons along that road there might be a bit too strong. I mean, I can see some Irregulars posted there (a la the Norwegian Irregulars) for EG and Cz, but the fortresses seem a bit much. WP already has tons of materiel to be able to reinforce those hexes ... which they should be fr. turn 2 .... To me, that little seam has always been sort of the "sticky" point for both forces.

Great scene!!

I would guess those units are shown as fixed so they don't get used as infantry auxiliaries by the Pact player.

This is a challenging part of the situation to include in the scenario. Neither side should be able to drop airborne or airmobile units in enemy territory without encountering the militia or territorial troops. Yet the territorial troops are practically fighting their own separate war -- "rear area combat operations" as it was called in the 1980s. It is the same with World War II scenarios. How much does the scenario designer want to represent partisan operations? Doing that means a lot of extra units and possibly distorting effects in the scenario.

Cheers

[Hellen_slith]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

ORIGINAL: mussey

Larry & Hellen, you'll get a kick out of this. Due to fascist NATO aggression a new border and internal security system has put in place. This includes x18 border bns (fixed), x20 militia rgts (fixed), x25 mobile security. The Czechs have some too.

JMHO, I think the EG "fortress" icons along that road there might be a bit too strong. I mean, I can see some Irregulars posted there (a la the Norwegian Irregulars) for EG and Cz, but the fortresses seem a bit much. WP already has tons of materiel to be able to reinforce those hexes ... which they should be fr. turn 2 .... To me, that little seam has always been sort of the "sticky" point for both forces.

Great scene!!

I would guess those units are shown as fixed so they don't get used as infantry auxiliaries by the Pact player.

Ah, ok, I did not think of that. But, I think those fortress icons might give too much boost. I think they have some sort of force field on them. I'm thinking of course of Scutari Fortress in Balkans 12 ... turns out that thing is near impregnable. Just didn't want WP to get too much help!! Hard enough for NATO as it is, LoL!!

How are the new colors going? Will we see them soon?

H

[cathar1244]

But, I think those fortress icons might give too much boost.

I would have to check, but the effects that come to mind are fortified hexes (requires a map change), and the use of equipment that is flagged as "fixed" (fixed guns have defense factors of 10 and higher IIRC). I don't think the unit icon alone will do anything but make the defense a bit more dogged because the unit can't retreat as it is static.

I expect Mussey's next release of this scenario will include the changed counter colors.

Cheers

[mussey]

As I move forward I'll monitor this addition. But keep in mind, the orbat is correct. The EG border guards consisted of x6 bdes on the WG border, x1 bde around w. Berlin, x1 bde on the Baltic coast, x1 bde on the Polish/Czech border. x3 bns per bde. Each bn is x40 inf sqds, x2 mtrs, some APC's. A speed bump. I wanted to use the Border Icon symbol, but wanted them fixed so as not to allow them to join the invasion.

The militia is also accurate. It was very large, well trained in military tactics, and a political check on the Army. Estimates of 280,000. About half will join the invasion, which should be very interesting, the others are fixed to EG cities (as they should). If used realistically, they would provide rear area security and most probably occupy the larger cities and towns of West Germany.

After Beta, I added a substantial West German Territorial Army. At 1979, it was still a rear area security force, but equally large. So the two opposing militias should help balance each other and help against airborne/SF attacks.

Hellen & Larry, please keep at it. Your posts have allowed me to see how others play this, and helps me make some corrections along the way!

[larryfulkerson]

I've got bad news. I was almost done with my moves when the game went CTD. I lost all that work, a couple of hours worth. I was so discusted that I reloaded the moves and just ended the turn and sent that to Damon. The wind has gone from my sails. How about we start over or something? Got a new version for us to use?

[cathar1244]

I wanted to use the Border Icon symbol, but wanted them fixed so as not to allow them to join the invasion.

For a future version of the scenario, you could create equipment clones of what is in those units, but flag the equipment as "fixed" so it can't move. Then you might be able to use the border icon symbol, but not have the unit move. Would need a test; wouldn't want the "fixed" unit to move, abandon all of its equipment in the process, and then automatically disband ...

Cheers

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

I wanted to use the Border Icon symbol, but wanted them fixed so as not to allow them to join the invasion.

For a future version of the scenario, you could create equipment clones of what is in those units, but flag the equipment as "fixed" so it can't move. Then you might be able to use the border icon symbol, but not have the unit move. Would need a test; wouldn't want the "fixed" unit to move, abandon all of its equipment in the process, and then automatically disband ...

Cheers

I would like to just state for the record that I usually don't have much use for units that don't move. I've been known for all the CD guns that I disband. I like to know how many units of those listed in the OOB that will move and shoot and CD guns, especially a lot of them, makes my guess at such a number very inaccurate. The more CD guns that I get rid of the more accurate an estimate I can make. I need to know because it will largely determine when to start pulling my units back toward Germany. I'm already fighting outnumbered I don't need another bit of bad data.

And I'm assuming that these Border Icon symbols will be just another line in the OOB listing something that can't move. And is largely useless to me as it adds nothing to the strength of the mobine forces as a whole. Adding these border icon symbols will make my game much harder. Just skipping over them when you scan through the OOB would become painful. Please explain how it's an improvement to the scenario.

[mussey]

've got bad news. I was almost done with my moves when the game went CTD. I lost all that work, a couple of hours worth.

I'm disheartened. Please send the crashlog et al to my tech forum CTD post so that the powers above can look at this.

Now that being said, I know the Tech Folks are busy but I wish they would acknowledge the issue and at least let me know if the CTD is on my end or theirs. As it stands I'm reluctant to roll out a final release until this is resolved. A new Beta should be out shortly....

[mussey]

don't have much use for units that don't move.

Out of the total orbat, only a small proportion are static about 40 of 944 units in play, including the new militia.

Hellen's aggressive game play has pointed out a large flaw with my orbat that needs to be addressed. I don't believe he was too far out of reality. NATO, and particularly the US had developed a new offensive doctrine called Land/Air Battle that called for deep, unexpected penetration of Warsaw Pact space,in the 1980's. Some form of this was available for 1979. It was a more warrior spirit not too dissimilar to Hellen's approach. I welcome his game-style. He has shown that the doctrine is very plausible!

Historically these new units are accurate, but I debated to myself whether or not to originally include them in Beta, especially if there was no need for them. I have now concluded they are needed. As a matter of fact, they were essential to East German security (foreign and domestic) and a major part of their military structure.

Now interestingly, we should talk about how these units would be used in 1979. As the Soviets pushed into West Germany, would the border units stay fixed on the border or would they follow? I do not know for sure. My hunch is they would stay to ensure no foreign provocateurs, NATO small units, or refugees would infiltrate EG space causing mischief.

As I release a newer version shortly, let's see how this plays out...

[cathar1244]

Now interestingly, we should talk about how these units would be used in 1979.

Good question. I think some of them would have remained on the border (to prevent cross border movement of civilians from either side) and others would have been turned into infantry replacements for the E German Army.

Bear in mind the Soviets were ideologically paranoid. They would not have wanted any "extras" crossing into the West and seeing how good the people there had lived (in comparison to what life in the Pact was like). After World War II ended, they took extensive measures to ensure their troops didn't have much contact with the West (beyond those parts of Germany they occupied), and people who had been POWs were considered ideologically suspect for years thereafter.

Cheers

[larryfulkerson]

....and people who had been POWs were considered ideologically suspect for years thereafter....

Through no fault of their own, it goes without saying.

The Cold War started right after WWII ended and hasn't really stopped yet. It's no longer a secret that American subs are actively hunting Soviet subs and vice versa. They have been doing it for decades and there HAVE been losses. The government tried to keep it hush hush but somehow or other the news leaked out and both governments had some 'splaining to do. At first they tried to deny everything, called it a conspiracy theory, but somehow the press got ahold of some pictures and documents and news rags like the National Enquirer started publishing the naked proof. Pictures, documents, stories from "those who were there", and API picked it up and started investigating and Reuters found out about what API was working on ( by industrial espionage ) and they started looking into it and before the next morning it was a thing that the MSM was speculating about on TV. I don't recall what finally happened as a result of it but a lot of Navy heads rolled.

[mussey]

that American subs are actively hunting Soviet subs and vice versa

As related to Expanded you can see a prime example of this with the Soviet military posture in the Murmansk region. An enormous amount of ASW to engage American submarines in the Arctic and north Norwegian Seas. It would have been a Theater of Operations unto itself. The Soviets were terrified of enemy infiltration here. Much of their own Northern Fleet was dedicated to prevent it (a good example was their only aircraft carrier here was for ASW). Note their SAM installations as well.

I tried to capture some of this without having to expand the map further north to Svalbard Island. (Though it weighs heavily on my mind, and if I did it would be a scenario like no other). One of the prime deviations from the original scenario is here. It is a very different flavor of warfare from the Central region. Since Beta, I set higher Objective values for a few of the Norwegian bases (Narvk, etc.) since a prime Soviet aim was to control as much of this region as possible to ensure the enhancement of Northern Fleet operations.

Now, how to make a better TOAW submarine....[8|]

[Hellen_slith]

Here is the map as of the end of NATO turn 6: