A Clash of Titans, Xhoel (Axis) vs Bitburger (Soviet)

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

That rail map is one of the clearest depictions of the weaknesses of Soviet rail as you go east - the sort of thing that needs to go in the library of WitE resources?

Thank you. I had to put the map up, because I though that just explaining it in text would not offer enough clarity.

I am assuming they will push back on the rail block at Svoboda during the Soviet turn, perhaps as part of an attempted break back in to the pockets? If so then it would have to be re-established in a future turn.

That is a possibility ofc. I am hoping that the huge gap that has emerged on the front will force the Soviets to pull back and reestablish defensive lines before mud hits, because once that happens, movement will be very constricted. Will have to see what strategy Bitburgerdraft will choose.

Looking east from the Voronezh pockets it is surprising there are not more units there. Presumably as well as the units that could rally there will be a garrison in Tambov. Just by coincidence there might be a couple of units railing past that sector that might have a low detection level as a result. One of your screenshots shows the battles with only about half a dozen recon missions in the area - was that the final amount in the turn? None was between Tambov and your units. I would probably have done more - but I know I am not the person to ask how much recon you should do!

There is probably a garrison at Tambov but I doubt that there are reserves in the area. Recon would have gotten something if that was the case. My recon shows that the Soviets have concentrated a huge number of units at Stalingrad. These are probably Guard units that are training and also building fortifications. That is a good point about recon. I tend to do a lot of recon actually but in this case I guess I wasn't that careful since it was the end of the turn and I had already moved all the units. So even if I had done more recon that wouldn't have changed the positioning of the forces although you are right, it would have given me valuable information.

Although you say the Axis air losses are large, they are below production in the single seat fighters and dive bombers that can be a problem. If you produce say 50 German bombers a turn, and when you take out the half of the year with mud and blizzard then you are about on a steady course with them. The Soviet side on the other hand did have large losses, and more FFBs than they produce. I would have guessed large bomber losses were down to flak where fighter escort would not have made much difference. But the total flak losses you have taken for the game are not that high. So would it be right to guess that basically the bombers have become the unfortunate bait for their FFBs to get shot down?

Large as in larger than most turns. I agree with you that they are not outrunning production and my pools are full because I have been micromanaging the air and have tried to preserve my air groups. It could be the flak, you are right. Will have to look at the losses of turn 50 (when I get it) and check the difference between flak losses for the 2 turns.

I could live with the bait part if my forces were poorly escorted but that is not the case. In some missions I am flying twice the fighter escort and still the Soviets are shooting 1/3 of the bombers down. I will have to fiddle with things to see what may cause it.

Thanks for the comment Tele, sure feels nice to talk about the game since it has been very quiet here for quite some time.

[xhoel]

T50, 28th of May-4th of June 1942
General Report from the front:

Mud has hit in all zones except for the Europe Zone. This makes movement, resupply as well as offensive/cleaning operations very difficult. Next week we will still have mud all over the front.

The enemy begun to pull back from their forward positions in front of Moscow and Tula, relocating to secondary defensive lines which are still well fortified.

Positions at the start of the week:



Positions at the end of the week:



The Voronezh pocket held and the Soviets are bringing in units in front of Tambov to restore their frontline. We have pushed formations forward to secure the outer layer of the pocket. Attacks in some of the exposed Soviet units have led to the destruction of 2 Rifle Divisions, 1 Rifle Brigade and 1 AT Artillery Brigade. 3 other attacks failed.

Positions at the start of the week:



Pocket, closer look:



Positions at the end of the week:



Circled in black are Soviet holds.

In the south the enemy has begun a long retreat and is probably aiming to reform their front behind the Don, using the river as a defense. 2 Rifle Divisions were destroyed in operations intending to destroy the pocket.

Positions at the start of the week:





Positions at the end of the week:





Point of interest in the south are 2 other things. First, the Soviet armored formations are concentrated on the Don where they are building fortifications. Secondly, The enemy is heavily fortifying the approaches to Stalingrad in preparation for the Axis summer offensive, several fortified Regions where spotted from the air and they are building up forts to level 3 (are at level 2 currently).

[xhoel]

Crimea

This week the 11th Army launched Operation Sturgeon Catch, the offensive on the fortress of Sevastopol. All 3 attacks by our forces where repulsed by heavy Soviet resistance. Casualties have been heavy, around 1.700 KIAs during the whole week. The fortification level in the affected hex has fallen to 1.62 but will probably be over level 2 next week again.
In all three battles, Soviet reserves activated and launched counterattacks that helped the defenders by a lot. The first battle (the costliest) only managed to lower the fort level by 0.18, a disappointing result, considering the heavy artillery support, the air support as well as the multiple Pioneer battalions that were committed (6 Pioneer Bns). The third battle came close to dislodging the Soviets but failed to do so. We will try to breach the Soviet defenses again next week and we are confident that we will have much more success.

Positions at the start of the week with units marked:



Positions at the end of the week:



3rd Battle as part of Operation Sturgeon Catch:

[xhoel]

Losses

The losses have been high because of the heavy fighting from last week. Permanent losses for this week amounted to around 65.460 men (both KIA and POWs) for the Soviets while the Axis lost around 6.240 men (KIA and POWs). It is interesting to note that around 2.500 men escaped from the pocket battles this week.

Losses in the air were high for the Axis as a result of a botched bombing run that was done without escort, we lost 32 bombers in one raid.

[Crackaces]

I don’t see “Karl” or the 305mm here? That is the key to this battle. Karl takes forts down by 3 .. 305mm 2 . No fort level after any engineers .. and . A level 5 fort is 0 ..I disagree with the effectiveness but it will work ..

[xhoel]

All the heavy artillery units were attached to the attacking HQs but it seems like they failed to commit to the battle unfortunately. I knew they had an effect on the fort level but didn't know they had such a big one. I'm guessing you tested this on battle message 7?

[Telemecus]

Crackaces is Mr message level 7!

That first attack was disappointing.

One other thing to think about is HQs - and you may have done this already. If you only have one HQ, none of the units will have a discount to their CV. But if you are going to have multiple HQs anyway commit to the battle you can use it to your advantage as well to increase the number of SUs you use and which ones are committed. So you could for example use the main HQ for your attack to have only the 6 heaviest calibre artillery - guaranteeing some will be used. And then keep all the reserve activators in different HQs to maximise the number committing to battle and so overall number of SUs used over all. I think (though could be corrected) that there is no modifier to artillery from HQs that are not the main HQ in the battle precisely because it is a 0 CV unit. There are many other different tactics for taking advantage of multiple HQs many of which I do not know. Some you may be thinking about already here.

[xhoel]

Disappointing indeed, especially considering that I had my best divisions there. In hindsight I could have done better. Yes I am aware of the CV penalties for different HQs taking part in one battle but it is good that you mention that since there are players who do not know about it (or oversee it). I have used multiple HQs before because the extra firepower is worth it in some cases so I agree with you there that it has its advantages.

I will be running some tests to see the effects of Heavy Artillery on fort levels myself and will probably post about it.

[Crackaces]

Again you don’t a need high message level to see results. “Karl” for example took Tambov down from fort level 3 to zero. Once it fires you see a message about the reduced fort levels. Add in 305’s you will see additional results. This could be a one off battle ...

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Again you don’t a need high message level to see results. “Karl” for example took Tambov down from fort level 3 to zero. Once it fires you see a message about the reduced fort levels. Add in 305’s you will see additional results. This could be a one off battle ...

I know what you mean, I was just wondering how you came to the conclusion. There is the little message that says that the fort was reduced by this much, true.

I must say however that from my tests (ran around 15 so far), artillery is not doing a lot even when the big guns activate. At most the reductions are in very small percentages of around 10%. However that changes depending on the final odds and the manual states so as well. So with better final odds even if the defender holds they will lose fort level by quite a lot.

I guess you got really lucky with the Tambov attack or maybe I'm getting very unlucky in my tests.

Cheers!

[EwaldvonKleist]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Again you don’t a need high message level to see results. “Karl” for example took Tambov down from fort level 3 to zero. Once it fires you see a message about the reduced fort levels. Add in 305’s you will see additional results. This could be a one off battle ...

Do you have a test case where this effect can be reliably reproduced? I do not doubt heavy artillery can drop the fort levels by 0.2, but I have yet to see 3 fort levels fall from artillery.

[Crackaces]

I can reload old turns now without the crime of cheating. [8D] I will get pictures. I have 4 times have used or been a part of big guns all with huge drops in fort level. Leningrad 2x3, Sevastopol 8MP (the dude), Tambov, Stalingrad. Each time I got a message of significant fort level drop. I replayed Sevastopol mainly for political reasons where Karl, 305’s , and hvy rockets along with engineers took a fort level from 5-> 0. I could be confused but I saw a message showing fort level reduction but it might be what it is at rather than amount reduced.

[xhoel]

Would be nice to see that. Like I said I am trying to recreate it and it isn't working so far. The big thing seems to be how the final odds are. Did you see a huge fort drop when the Soviets held and the odds were <1.5?

[Crackaces]

The problem is recognizing results. For example, the dude reducing Sevastopol was pretty dramatic as it was supplied fort level 5 ... that for my attention like a heart attack. But now I will look and document factors. For example, how much stuff and what the Soviet has opposing . Leningrad Stalingrad and Tambov were isolated that means an inability to shoot back that I did not really think about ... all I saw in my attacks is the siege art fire , fort level drop, and the rest of my stuff being much more effective ....

[xhoel]

I look forward to your report. Would be nice to have some actual facts as to what the Heavy Artillery can and cannot do.

Cheers!

[xhoel]

T51, 4th of June-11th of June 1942.
Report from the Front:

The enemy is holding their positions in the Tambov sector and we have made contact with their frontline by pushing forward some armored/motorized formations. Our forces engaged trapped Soviet units in the outer ring of the Voronezh pocket and destroyed 1 Rifle and 1 AT-Artillery Brigade. All other units have taken positions and are preparing for cleaning operations that will take place next week once the weather clears.

Positions AGC, before and after:





Pocket, before and after:





In the South the enemy continues to give ground as they retreat to the Don. We are giving chase accordingly. The 2nd Hungarian Army is starting to deploy in strength on the Don and their arrival should allow us to relocate certain formations to other sectors, to be used offensively. 1 Rifle Division was destroyed after attacks on the pocket.

Positions AGS, before and after:






Crimea

The offensive begun with an attack on the same hex as last week and we failed to push the Soviets back for a hair. Heavy losses taken on both sides. The second attack succeeded in pushing the Soviets back, but losses were heavy again. The same situation was repeated during the attack on the second defensive line, the Soviets held back one attack but were forced to retreat after the second. It was a really close call but we managed to win a hard fought victory. The attack destroyed the Soviet airbase that was acting as support point for the VVS which means that the Soviets no longer can rely on any major help from the air. The 16th Mot. Division has reached the outskirts of Sevastopol where 3 Guards Rifle Divisions are located. They will probably be formed into a Rifle Corps next week, something that would strengthen the Soviet position and also ease administrative burden.

A lot of what we do next week will be dependent on how the Soviets react to this development. The belief is that they will pull back in order to strengthen their position inside Sevastopol and the line connecting the port to the rest of the Coastal Army but the enemy is also in a good position to attack the 16th Mot. Division. A successful attack here, would send the 16th routing and cause headaches at the command of the XXIV Panzer Corps.

Crimea before and after:





Won battle at the first defensive line:



Losses from the heavy fighting in the Crimea:



The experienced commander of the Coastal Army defending Sevastopol:



Clarification: The Soviets can start building Rifle Corps in June 1942 (Turn 51). A Corps unit adds 4 CP as opposed to 3 Rifle Divisions adding 6 CP. The Soviets have a total of 12 Divisions (9 regular + 3 Guard) Divisions in the Sevastopol sector. It seems that the 9 regular Divisions are under the command of the Coastal Army commanded by the skilled GM Georgy Zakharov. This means that the Army is at 18 CP, so it is not suffering a overload penalty. This means that the Guard divisions (or Guard Corp once it forms) will either be put under the command of the Coastal Army (thus overloading it) or will be under the command of another Army and won't have artillery and additional support provided to them.

[xhoel]

Casualties:

[xhoel]

T52, 11th of June-18th of June 1942.
AGN

Army Group North launched operation “Fisherman”, whose aim was to cut off forward Soviet forces in preparation for the push on the northern flank of Moscow. The entirety of the 9th Army as well as 2 full Panzer Corps, 2 independent infantry Corps (XXIII and LI Corps) and air assets from the VIII Fliegerkorps were commited in battle for the operation. The 9th Army broke through Soviet forward defenses and secured a 30 by 30 mile gap that was used by the 2 Panzer Corps to move forward. From here on, the armored formations punched through the weak Soviet rear and made contact with the XXIII Corps which had secured a position between the two rivers. The operation has been a big success, routing several Soviet formations and encircling 9 Rifle Divisions and 8 Rifle Brigades (both normal and Naval Infantry ones). The 8th Army (Batov) and the 22nd Army (Zhukov) have either been routed or encircled. The losses have been high especially in the air, as the StG 2 has taken heavy losses due to strong enemy resistance in the air as well as heavy flak.





AGC

The destruction of the Voronezh pocket was the order of the day for AGC. Multiple formations were involved in the clean up operations which yielded a large number of POWs. 17 Rifle Divisions, 3 Rifle Brigades, and 1 AT Artillery Brigade were destroyed in the fighting. Voronezh itself has not been assaulted yet and its defenders (1 Fortified Region, 1 Rifle Division and 1 Naval Infantry Brigade) are holding a good defensive position with a high fort level (3.8). A bombing run on the city was met by heavy AA fire, which destroyed 13 bombers out of 80. Further air raids were put on hold.

(I believe that the flak in game (as of this patch) is far too powerful. Such results as shown, make bombing of big cities a stupid move because the losses are so heavy. And all of this in a city that has been cut off from supply for 3 weeks now. This isn't the first time this has happened but I wanted to emphasize it.)

The enemy pulled back from the Tula area, leaving open ground between us and them. Their new positions were unfortified and intelligence and recon reports indicated that an opportunity to encircle said forces existed. After due consideration was given, infantry formations were moved forward and opened a gap in the Soviet defense lines. The following panzer and motorised formations used the terrain to their advantage and after breaking through the enemy rear linked up just south of Ryazan. To secure the pocket, we have arranged our formations in two defensive lines. This will make it harder for the enemy to conduct counterattacks but the possibility still exist since there is a strong presence of Guard units in the area as well as other reserves that can be used for counterattacks. 15 Soviet Rifle Divisions as well as the headquarters for the 21st Army (Meretskov) have been trapped in the pocket.

The strong commitment of units to clean the Voronezh pocket as well as the follow up offensive has left us short of units to man the frontline. We have haphazardly thrown units forward but these positions will need to be reinforced next week.

Positions at the start of the week:





Positions at the end of the week:







Bombing run on Voronezh:

[xhoel]

AGS

If both AGN and AGC had great success this week, AGS failed in both of its offensives. The first offensive that meant to encircle Soviet forces defending the Donets line fell short of its objective. The northern thrust had difficulties from the beginning as heavy attacks by our infantry divisions were held back by tenacious Soviet defenders, which held back 3 attacks on the river line. Once the defenders where pushed back, the XXXXVIII Panzer Corps crossed the river and dislodged Soviet forces from their secondary defensive positions, eventually cutting the rail line from Stalingrad and hitting the Soviet rear. At this point, the XXXXVIII Panzer Corps was ordered to halt their advance and await for the southern thrust. The attacks from the south started well, the Soviets were pushed back from their forward positions and our units managed to reach the river line. Attacks by the XXXXIX Mountain Corps failed to dislodge the Soviet defenders in 2 occasions (bad rolls and underestimating the enemy from my side). Only one Soviet division was moved. This allowed us to order 2 Panzer Divisions to cross the river. Their attacks on the stubborn 341st Rifle Division also failed. At this point our armored units were ordered to turn around and secure their positions. We have gained a bridgehead over the Donets but the position is not exactly secure and Soviet counterattacks may ruin the day for the armored formations.

A full report over the failure of the Donets offensive will be posted at a later time.

Positions at the start of the week:





Positions at the end of the week:






Crimea

In the Crimea the Soviets pulled back from their forward positions. The 1st Guard Rifle Corps has been formed in Sevastopol and is defending the city together with the 138th Mountain Division. The x Mountain Division defending forward Soviet position was pushed back without much trouble. The unit was under direct Stavka control. The other attacks on a key Soviet posiiton failed to dislodge the Soviet forces which held back 3 determined attacks by the 11th Army as well as armored formations. Both sides took heavy losses and the fort level was reduced from 3.10 to 1.50. Soviet combat strength has also fallen and the position should be taken by next week.

[xhoel]

Losses

The losses this week were very heavy as Axis forces went on the offensive on all sectors. The Axis suffered 14.065 KIA, lost around 436 guns and 104 AFVs. Total Soviet losses were much higher, for a total of 240.500 men, of which 39.489 men were KIA and 165.102 were taken POW. This means that irrecoverable losses for the week amounted to 204.591 men. Losses in guns and vehicles were high as well.

In the pocket cleaning operations, around 10.695 Soviets managed to escape capture and returned to enemy lines according to intelligence reports.

In the air, Dive Bomber losses were high due to their constant sorties in assistance of the offensives. The Soviets lost around 733 airframes.