Hi, The USN begins with .50cal and 20mm AA. If you send the ships back to PH they return in around 38 days with .50 changed to 20mm and 20mm upgraded to 40mm. (After the second trip to PH ships have 4x the AA they had in May.)
Since Nov 2002 I have played 30 PBEM. All as USN Scen 19 200 Percent Japanese 100 percent USN.
The IJN CV have never failed to defeat the USN CV (with a few exceptions where IJN player was caught with his CV divided. A few Japanese players have tried to preform operations against NG and Solomons at same time, resulting in my being able to mass USN CV against smaller number IJN CV)
Still the USA has managed to only lose 3 of the 30 PBEM games.
And not because of USN CV. (Or B-17 in Naval Strike mode)
It has been because Japanese players always get in range of one of my bases where US carrier type airgroups are stationed.
(You can't sink a land base)
The Full Monty
Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
Ship upgrades
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
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Tristanjohn
- Posts: 3027
- Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 4:50 am
- Location: Daly City CA USA
- Contact:
I do not agree that inorder for a game to be considered a historical war game it must follow historical precedent, ie; no China offensive allowed in 1941 because there wasnt one historically. Its like saying no defence of the Malaya barrier can last beyond March 6th 42 because it didnt historically.
We see eye to eye on this point. I would go further and state that a realistic simulation strives to allow just this sort of experimentation within historical context, that without this ability the simulation fails. Keep in mind, though, that the underlying models are expected to be up to their work--lest they teach a bad lesson.
That's the crux of it, that any wargame's most appropriate control is history itself. When results from play begin to stray too far from that norm then one's conclusion has to be that the model is mistaken in one area or another.
We see eye to eye on this point. I would go further and state that a realistic simulation strives to allow just this sort of experimentation within historical context, that without this ability the simulation fails. Keep in mind, though, that the underlying models are expected to be up to their work--lest they teach a bad lesson.
That's the crux of it, that any wargame's most appropriate control is history itself. When results from play begin to stray too far from that norm then one's conclusion has to be that the model is mistaken in one area or another.
Regarding Frank Jack Fletcher: They should have named an oiler after him instead. -- Irrelevant
Re: Ship upgrades
Originally posted by Mogami
Since Nov 2002 I have played 30 PBEM. All as USN Scen 19 200 Percent Japanese 100 percent USN.
The IJN CV have never failed to defeat the USN CV (with a few exceptions where IJN player was caught with his CV divided. A few Japanese players have tried to preform operations against NG and Solomons at same time, resulting in my being able to mass USN CV against smaller number IJN CV)
.
Mogami,
Thats the point, historically 1:1 CV odds resulted in 1 for 1 losses. Would you expect a lesser CV TF to defeat a larger one? I am curious have you ever had a 6 on 6 CV battle?
Midway was an aberation. It was not a true Aircombat TF vs Aircombat TF battle. It was more like an Aircombat TF vs Airsupport TF. If History has shown us anything its that Airsupport TF were particularly vulnerable ( ie; Shoho at Coral Sea, Ryujo at E.Solomons and Kido Buhtai at Midway).
Stick those Midway CVs out in the middle of the ocean mano on mano, and I will venture a guess that you would get 3 CVs sunk or disabled for each side. Not the lopsided 4 to 1 ratio historically.
CV Battles
Hi, My last PBEM carrier battle was Saratoga and Wasp versus 3 IJN CV. Battle resulted in 2 IJN CV damaged (I dont know how badly. I expected sinking reports but so far have not seen them)and Wasp damaged (30 sys) Sara came out unscratched.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
This worries me more than anything else. Not the getting "hammered" part. I can take it, have for years. No, what worries me is that I've already been advised that Matrix apparently listens to this crowd and allows the development of the model (or at least previously this was the case in re to UV) to be molded (however subtly) according to these lights. Although this is somewhat of an exaggeration, and I do not wish to seem unfair, still one might well typify the logical result of this sort of meddling, however well-meaning, in the form of those super IJN CV TFs which currently sail the Coral Sea in UV.
If you want to play a realistic game where Japan is going to be dramatically defeated with ease by a highly superior Allied force, play one of the historical scenarios without the extra Japanese carriers and accelerated reinforcement schedules. The scenarios which even up the odds, like 17 and 19 are added for players who are willing to sacrafice historical accuracy for gameplay.
I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes.
Hi, My last PBEM carrier battle was Saratoga and Wasp versus 3 IJN CV. Battle resulted in 2 IJN CV damaged (I dont know how badly. I expected sinking reports but so far have not seen them)and Wasp damaged (30 sys) Sara came out unscratched.
My last CV battle (playing as Japan) I performed a sneak attack with 6 CVs on 5 American CVs at Luganville, and sank 1 American CV with a loss of about 60 planes. The next turn his 4 remaining carriers pursued mine and sank the Akagi and Kaga (they wont make it back to port, havent sunk yet) in exchange for 1 more American CV. So 6 CVs vs 5 CVs, we each lost 2 CVs and I lost about half of my experienced pilots.
I wish I had the version of the game that was lopsided in favor of the Japanese as well.
If you want to play a realistic game where Japan is going to be dramatically defeated with ease by a highly superior Allied force, play one of the historical scenarios without the extra Japanese carriers and accelerated reinforcement schedules. The scenarios which even up the odds, like 17 and 19 are added for players who are willing to sacrafice historical accuracy for gameplay.
I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes.
Hi, My last PBEM carrier battle was Saratoga and Wasp versus 3 IJN CV. Battle resulted in 2 IJN CV damaged (I dont know how badly. I expected sinking reports but so far have not seen them)and Wasp damaged (30 sys) Sara came out unscratched.
My last CV battle (playing as Japan) I performed a sneak attack with 6 CVs on 5 American CVs at Luganville, and sank 1 American CV with a loss of about 60 planes. The next turn his 4 remaining carriers pursued mine and sank the Akagi and Kaga (they wont make it back to port, havent sunk yet) in exchange for 1 more American CV. So 6 CVs vs 5 CVs, we each lost 2 CVs and I lost about half of my experienced pilots.
I wish I had the version of the game that was lopsided in favor of the Japanese as well.
"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan
"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket
"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the
"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket
"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the
I'm still looking for the Easter Egg hidden in UV that produces invincible Japanese.
Lord knows i havn't found it yet.....as documented in the Ballard Book; The Skeletons of Nik's Closet ISBN 00043-11231-00012-001
Some great photos of the wreckage of some of my IJN carriers along with commentary by some of my former PBEM opponents
Lord knows i havn't found it yet.....as documented in the Ballard Book; The Skeletons of Nik's Closet ISBN 00043-11231-00012-001
Some great photos of the wreckage of some of my IJN carriers along with commentary by some of my former PBEM opponents
Originally posted by Snigbert
This worries me more than anything else. Not the getting "hammered" part. I can take it, have for years. No, what worries me is that I've already been advised that Matrix apparently listens to this crowd and allows the development of the model (or at least previously this was the case in re to UV) to be molded (however subtly) according to these lights. Although this is somewhat of an exaggeration, and I do not wish to seem unfair, still one might well typify the logical result of this sort of meddling, however well-meaning, in the form of those super IJN CV TFs which currently sail the Coral Sea in UV.
If you want to play a realistic game where Japan is going to be dramatically defeated with ease by a highly superior Allied force, play one of the historical scenarios without the extra Japanese carriers and accelerated reinforcement schedules. The scenarios which even up the odds, like 17 and 19 are added for players who are willing to sacrafice historical accuracy for gameplay.
I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes.
Hi, My last PBEM carrier battle was Saratoga and Wasp versus 3 IJN CV. Battle resulted in 2 IJN CV damaged (I dont know how badly. I expected sinking reports but so far have not seen them)and Wasp damaged (30 sys) Sara came out unscratched.
My last CV battle (playing as Japan) I performed a sneak attack with 6 CVs on 5 American CVs at Luganville, and sank 1 American CV with a loss of about 60 planes. The next turn his 4 remaining carriers pursued mine and sank the Akagi and Kaga (they wont make it back to port, havent sunk yet) in exchange for 1 more American CV. So 6 CVs vs 5 CVs, we each lost 2 CVs and I lost about half of my experienced pilots.
I wish I had the version of the game that was lopsided in favor of the Japanese as well.
I just finished a major carrier battle in one of my pbems. My super japanese carrier force was completely mauled. All my carriers were sunk by the super USN carrier force while a few of his were damaged. Allies also have better damage control as well. I also wish I had the version of the game that was in favor of the japanese.
Check out my mod for Strategic Command American Civil War!
https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 9f17441266
Originally posted by Tanaka
I just finished a major carrier battle in one of my pbems. My super japanese carrier force was completely mauled. All my carriers were sunk by the super USN carrier force while a few of his were damaged. Allies also have better damage control as well. I also wish I had the version of the game that was in favor of the japanese.
Was the biggest, most intense CV vs CV battle I've ever had - heaps of piecemeal raids against a hugely depleted IJN CV force (all his cvs were fine, but he'd lost heaps of planes in suicide attacks on transport tfs at luganville under 80 wildcats on cap etc. I outnumbered him in the air big time).
Was surrpised I took any damage at all - barely 50 of his bombers got past my fighters to try and bomb, and he scored about 15 hits. I had 300 bombers bomb and scored about 30 hits.
With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?
Originally posted by Snigbert
...........
I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes.
..............
You are a man of truth! Sometimes people don't understand you. So I carry your message to the people by quoting you in my sig and am honored to do so.
Quote from Snigbert -
"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."
"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."
"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
Originally posted by Luskan
Was the biggest, most intense CV vs CV battle I've ever had - heaps of piecemeal raids against a hugely depleted IJN CV force (all his cvs were fine, but he'd lost heaps of planes in suicide attacks on transport tfs at luganville under 80 wildcats on cap etc. I outnumbered him in the air big time).
Was surrpised I took any damage at all - barely 50 of his bombers got past my fighters to try and bomb, and he scored about 15 hits. I had 300 bombers bomb and scored about 30 hits.
Japanase pilots are definitely more experienced and better skilled in the beginning so you will get better results with fewer numbers.
Unfortunately better allied technology and larger numbers usually in the end carry the day.
Check out my mod for Strategic Command American Civil War!
https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 9f17441266
You are a man of truth! Sometimes people don't understand you. So I carry your message to the people by quoting you in my sig and am honored to do so.
When I run for office you can be my campaign manager. Or spin doctor to save me every time I put my foot in my mouth.
When I run for office you can be my campaign manager. Or spin doctor to save me every time I put my foot in my mouth.
"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan
"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket
"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the
"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket
"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the
Originally posted by Nikademus
I want a fan club too. Why should Sniggie get all the adoration?
:p
Because he tells it like it is. No BS just straight unvarnished truth. AND he is a 12th degree MOTO (Master of the Obvious)!!:D
Quote from Snigbert -
"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."
"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."
"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
Because he tells it like it is. No BS just straight unvarnished truth. AND he is a 12th degree MOTO (Master of the Obvious)!!
Have I mentioned what an insightful, perceptive individual you are?
Have I mentioned what an insightful, perceptive individual you are?
"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan
"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket
"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the
"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket
"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the
Allied Air Power
As one of only 3 IJN players to defeat the venerable and honorable Mogami, I must whole heartedly agree with his synopsis of US airpower. It was only because of 10 days of thunderstorms and an invasion fleet with 120,000 men that I managed to eke out an auto-victory. I tried to take Luganville early w/o enough troops to also take Efate por Ville. Let me tell you I got whacked! I spent months recovering. Taking P.M. is good, but is really inmaterial if you are pursuing an auto-victory and can take both the "LUG" and EpV and hold. I have played 9 PBEMs to conclusion as IJN and have lost only to U2(Dan is "the Man"). The best advice I can offer is to strike early(1st turn) build up and avoid US land based air. Seek out naval engagements. Send small scouting sorties(you will lose half of them). Don't lose your msw, you will need them. Save your LBAs. Put your A6M3s on your CVs and your A6M2s on land. Keep a high experiance patrol plane squdron on night naval attack. The best assault for me has been LUG and EpV. I am 7 for 7. 1 for 2 with Australia( Mogami(end game) and U2 (devastated in mid game)). The best players will force you to Australia... Good Luck!
A WILLING FOE AND SEA ROOM...
ANONYMOUS
ANONYMOUS
Re: Allied Air Power
Originally posted by Bosun
I have played 9 PBEMs to conclusion as IJN and have lost only to U2(Dan is "the Man").
Thank you for the kind words:D
Originally posted by Snigbert
Because he tells it like it is. No BS just straight unvarnished truth. AND he is a 12th degree MOTO (Master of the Obvious)!!
Have I mentioned what an insightful, perceptive individual you are?
Goes without saying. But thank you for your kind and truthful words.Quote from Snigbert -
"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."
"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."
"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
Actually IMHO the Japanese "doctrine" was always to concentrate the main fleet carriers as much as possible with the CVLS acting out smaller support roles.
Breaking up the 6 CV Task Force for the Coral Sea operations made sense at the time as they did not expect a major allied defence of the area.
They showed at Midway and at the Marianas the willingness to mass the main fleet carriers CVs they had left in one big task force. Certainly if Nagumo/Yamamoto could have had Shokaku and Zuikaku at Midway they would have done so.
So I dont think the "massive" japanese CV groups we see in scenarios 17 and 19 are not historically inaccurate given no battle of Midway fluke. Its just that in the South Pacific after Midway Japan just didnt have the assets to field what they would have wanted to. They scrapped together everything they had.
As far as the one to one ratio is concerned look at what Hiryu was able to accomplish after her sister ships were taken out of the battle of Midway. Imagine if all 4 Japanese carriers had been able to launch. Im sure the battle would have been very much lopsided, the other way.
Breaking up the 6 CV Task Force for the Coral Sea operations made sense at the time as they did not expect a major allied defence of the area.
They showed at Midway and at the Marianas the willingness to mass the main fleet carriers CVs they had left in one big task force. Certainly if Nagumo/Yamamoto could have had Shokaku and Zuikaku at Midway they would have done so.
So I dont think the "massive" japanese CV groups we see in scenarios 17 and 19 are not historically inaccurate given no battle of Midway fluke. Its just that in the South Pacific after Midway Japan just didnt have the assets to field what they would have wanted to. They scrapped together everything they had.
As far as the one to one ratio is concerned look at what Hiryu was able to accomplish after her sister ships were taken out of the battle of Midway. Imagine if all 4 Japanese carriers had been able to launch. Im sure the battle would have been very much lopsided, the other way.
Nothing quite like the feel of something new....
HiAztek wrote:As far as the one to one ratio is concerned look at what Hiryu was able to accomplish after her sister ships were taken out of the battle of Midway. Imagine if all 4 Japanese carriers had been able to launch. Im sure the battle would have been very much lopsided, the other way.
I dont know about lopsided the otherway, but at LEAST you would expect an 3 for 3 exchange with the IJN probably comming out a head by one carrier.
I disagree - with McClusky's dauntlesses the only bombers left when they arrived, if they'd got the same number of hits on empty IJN CVs - I think you'd find that all the IJN CVs would still be afloat (after those first hits they would have been faster, harder to hit still etc. More guns firing). Most importantly, the IJN CVs were destroyed by fire (or crippled so a sub could finish them like the ijn did for Yorktown) - without all those fuelled up planes and refuelling hoses and ordinance sitting around on the deck and in the hangars, the IJN damage control would have had a chance (whereas in real life they didn't).TIMJOT wrote:Hi
I dont know about lopsided the otherway, but at LEAST you would expect an 3 for 3 exchange with the IJN probably comming out a head by one carrier.
I think the IJN would have won midway if they'd been able to launch with antiship weapons loaded (bombing cvs with bombs designed for hitting the island wouldn't have done the job I'm guessing) - their seaplane had already found their targets so small chance of them getting lost. They were better trained - lots of US navy wildcats had already been lost (except those on CAP).
With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?