FITE 2

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Lobster
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RE: FITE 2

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: Teufeldk

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: Teufeldk




I am unsure what you mean by making major rivers into minor rivers at bridges?


There are many points where a super river becomes a minor river at a bridge and then becomes a super river again making it more difficult to defend.



Image

Maybe it is because they build the bridge at the place where the river was the most narrow?

I did not draw the map, so I don't really know, to be honest, but I think it is fairly high quality. And I can assure you that is not made on purpose to make it hard to defend. But if you find places that you think are just wrong according to the geography in the 1940's please let us know, and we will look into it.

I do have German Army and RKKA topo maps of the Soviet Union from pre WW2 to the present in many different scales. But I'm not going to criticize Rick's map interpretations. I was just wondering why some major rivers have minor river hexes at bridges is all. Cheers. [;)]
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RE: FITE 2

Post by TPOO »

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: Teufeldk

ORIGINAL: Lobster




There are many points where a super river becomes a minor river at a bridge and then becomes a super river again making it more difficult to defend.



Image

Maybe it is because they build the bridge at the place where the river was the most narrow?

I did not draw the map, so I don't really know, to be honest, but I think it is fairly high quality. And I can assure you that is not made on purpose to make it hard to defend. But if you find places that you think are just wrong according to the geography in the 1940's please let us know, and we will look into it.

I do have German Army and RKKA topo maps of the Soviet Union from pre WW2 to the present in many different scales. But I'm not going to criticize Rick's map interpretations. I was just wondering why some major rivers have minor river hexes at bridges is all. Cheers. [;)]

You might have to check with Soren to see if he changed some of these Super River hexes to Minor River hexes that had rail road bridges as I did not make the map with them that way. I think at one time there was a reason that he wanted it that way but that was so long ago I do not remember. There are only a couple of hexes on the map where I purposely put a minor river hex on a super river for the reason it was much narrower in that spot but neither of them are road or railroad crossings. If there is a consensus on which way to go on these hexes I can fix them and Soren or Kristian can upload a corrected scenario in case there is a new patch coming soon. Thank you. [:)]
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RE: FITE 2

Post by cantona2 »

In those cases you need to carefully look at the terrain and defend accordingly, maybe its a ford or a narrower part of the river. Make those strong points in the line, entrench your units deep, support with massed artillery and stop the Fascist invader [:D]
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RE: FITE 2

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: cantona2

In those cases you need to carefully look at the terrain and defend accordingly, maybe its a ford or a narrower part of the river. Make those strong points in the line, entrench your units deep, support with massed artillery and stop the Fascist invader [:D]

Well, that door swings both ways so it could be the Fascist defending against the Patriotic Hordes. [;)]
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RE: FITE 2

Post by Teufeldk »

A new version (1.5) is ready.

We found a few issues (nothing huge, but still worth fixing):

- some Russian formations had wrong formation supply
- there was a mix up in event meaning that when the when the Germans liberated Bessarabia one Romanian formation would not activate. The same goes for the Germans in Norway, the Iranians, and the Hungarians and Germans that should activate when Romania surrendered.
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RE: FITE 2

Post by Teufeldk »

A new FITE2 version (1.6) is ready.

Minor fixes, and some new rules concerning Russian-Finnish interaction.
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RE: FITE 2

Post by Teufeldk »

The Short Briefing for Version 1.6
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RE: FITE 2

Post by Lobster »

If you are going to do this:

Special rules for Finland
Throughout the war Finland kept close ties to the Western Allies, and never signed a formal alliance with Germany. In the game this means that if the Russians tries to conquer Finland before turn 214 by taking a hex with a red star the USA, will reduce Lend Lease to Russian (-2 supply to Russia). In addition the German units in Norway will activate and can be sent to support Finland. These effects are cancelled if the Finns or the Germans take any hex between (268,89) and (274,101) on the Kirov rail line or on turn 214 whichever comes first.

Then you have to do it completely, not just for one side. The Finns MUST stop their offensive in first week of November along the entire front. That was part of the U.S. demands and the Finns did stop. So if you want to get historical do it for both sides, not just one.

From Wiki:

Finland maintained good relations with a number of other Western powers. Foreign volunteers from Sweden and Estonia were among the foreigners who joined Finnish ranks; Infantry Regiment 200, called soomepoisid ("Finnish boys"), mostly comprised Estonians, while the Swedes mustered the Swedish Volunteer Battalion.[110] The Finnish government stressed that Finland was fighting as a co-belligerent with Germany against the USSR only to protect itself and that it was still the same democratic country as it had been in the Winter War.[98] For example, Finland maintained diplomatic relations with the exiled Norwegian government and more than once criticised German occupation policy in Norway.[111] Relations between Finland and the United States were more complex; the US public was sympathetic to the "brave little democracy" and had anti-communist sentiments. At first, the United States sympathised with the Finnish cause, but the situation became problematic after the Finnish Army crossed the 1939 border.[112] Finnish and German troops were a threat to the Kirov Railway and the northern supply line between the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.[112] On 25 October 1941, the US demanded that Finland cease all hostilities against the USSR and withdraw behind the 1939 border. In public, President Ryti rejected the demands, but in private, he wrote to Mannerheim on 5 November asking him to halt the offensive. Mannerheim agreed and secretly instructed General Hjalmar Siilasvuo and his III Corps to end the assault on the Kirov Railway.
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RE: FITE 2

Post by gliz2 »

Great work Guys, muchos obrogado :)

I agree with Lobster.

PS. Any chance you adjust the starting locked position for Germans to Konigsberg? The silly Norway start-up is quite annoying.
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RE: FITE 2

Post by Lobster »

This is kind of confusing. Does the recon = zero on turn 2 or turn 3?

Recon:
German recon is 10 the first turn, on turn 2 onwards its 0. Soviet Recon is 0 the entire war

Axis Recon: 10 for 2 turn the 0


IMO this needs a prerequisite. If the Soviets are not in the Crimea how can either happen? Maybe add Soviets in Kerch for first one and Sevastopol for second one?

Germany.
Turn: 92-104 Theatre option,
Operation: Trappenjagd
Prerequisite: None
German ground shock 140 for 1 turn
German air shock 140 for 1 turn
German Rail 8000 (Increased by 2000)
Text: Axis launch operation Trappenjagd
Description: The German 11th Army under General Oberst Eric von Manstein clears the Crimea

Germany.
Turn: 92-104 Theatre option,
Operation: Störfang
Prerequisite: None
German ground shock 140 for 1 turn
German air shock 140 for 1 turn
Text: Axis launch operation Störfang
Description: The German 11th Army under General Oberst Eric von Manstein assaults Sevastopol
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RE: FITE 2

Post by larryfulkerson »

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RE: FITE 2

Post by Teufeldk »

ORIGINAL: Lobster

If you are going to do this:

Special rules for Finland
Throughout the war Finland kept close ties to the Western Allies, and never signed a formal alliance with Germany. In the game this means that if the Russians tries to conquer Finland before turn 214 by taking a hex with a red star the USA, will reduce Lend Lease to Russian (-2 supply to Russia). In addition the German units in Norway will activate and can be sent to support Finland. These effects are cancelled if the Finns or the Germans take any hex between (268,89) and (274,101) on the Kirov rail line or on turn 214 whichever comes first.

Then you have to do it completely, not just for one side. The Finns MUST stop their offensive in first week of November along the entire front. That was part of the U.S. demands and the Finns did stop. So if you want to get historical do it for both sides, not just one.

From Wiki:

Finland maintained good relations with a number of other Western powers. Foreign volunteers from Sweden and Estonia were among the foreigners who joined Finnish ranks; Infantry Regiment 200, called soomepoisid ("Finnish boys"), mostly comprised Estonians, while the Swedes mustered the Swedish Volunteer Battalion.[110] The Finnish government stressed that Finland was fighting as a co-belligerent with Germany against the USSR only to protect itself and that it was still the same democratic country as it had been in the Winter War.[98] For example, Finland maintained diplomatic relations with the exiled Norwegian government and more than once criticised German occupation policy in Norway.[111] Relations between Finland and the United States were more complex; the US public was sympathetic to the "brave little democracy" and had anti-communist sentiments. At first, the United States sympathised with the Finnish cause, but the situation became problematic after the Finnish Army crossed the 1939 border.[112] Finnish and German troops were a threat to the Kirov Railway and the northern supply line between the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.[112] On 25 October 1941, the US demanded that Finland cease all hostilities against the USSR and withdraw behind the 1939 border. In public, President Ryti rejected the demands, but in private, he wrote to Mannerheim on 5 November asking him to halt the offensive. Mannerheim agreed and secretly instructed General Hjalmar Siilasvuo and his III Corps to end the assault on the Kirov Railway.

It is already implemented: In FITE2 the Finns have never been allowed to move beyond the Yellow Diamond marked hexes (marking their historical advance). The only exception is around Louhki (270,90), where the Finns are allowed to cut the Kirov rail line, which they did not do historically as you point out.

But with the new update, the Finns pay a price for cutting the Kirov rail line. If they do that the Russians can with no penalty attack and destroy the Finns before the summer of 43 (after the summer of 43 there are no penalty, whether the Kirov Rail line has been cut or not).

If the Finns "agree" to the US demands, and do not cut the Kirov Rail line at Louhki, the US will, in turn, look harshly on the Russians destroying the Finns before the Summer of 43: the Russians get -2 supply for the entire war (representing reduced Lend Lease). This penalty is activated if the Russians move beyond the Red Star marked hexes.

So in short: the Russians can still destroy the Finns if they want too before the summer of 43, but it will cost them -2 supply (and the Germans in Norway will active) unless the Finns have cut the Kirov rail line around Louhki.

It is a difficult political situation to simulate in TOAW, but this is our attempt.

Regards
Kristian

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RE: FITE 2

Post by gliz2 »

My opinion about "simulating" politicsl background is forget about it. It's impossible as there are too many variables.

Back in the day when I played a lot of boardgames I always liked the fact that you were not limited by the historical events. The initial set up could be easily randomized same as reinforcements or "politics".

I know, the engine and bla, bla...Why people get so obssesed with putting historical limits to a ahistorical recreation? I mean ifvyol you want simulation then Soviets must be oblige to attack in Jul-Sep'41 and the Germans not to be allowed to withdraw from 1942 onwards. That would be simulating the political background of military aspects.

It doesn't matter whether the Fins will assault Leningrad or Romanians will be shipped to fight for Moscow. This is a game, play and enjoy it. It will always be possible to do really crazy ahistorical stuff because the engine allows it.

PS. I found out that if the Soviets are to skip Turn 1 the scenario play much better.
Also not allowing to blow major bridges until enemy contact makes things more interesting (for both sides throught the game).
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RE: FITE 2

Post by larryfulkerson »

not allowing to blow major bridges until enemy contact makes things more interesting
I agree. I'm wondering why there is no rule about using only engineer units to destroy bridges. Or maybe there is such a rule. I could be wrong.
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RE: FITE 2

Post by fogger »

Larry I served in the engineers as a NCO, and then in the infantry and a sabre squadron as a commissioned officer. My experience is that all senior NCO's know how to drop a bridge. The only question how much PE you can lay your hands on and how much time you have to prepare. It is not uncommon for engineers to prepared a bridge and then leave it in the hands of the infantry to do the task later. But then there a difference between dropping a span (denying) and dropping the span and blowing up the approach slab /embankments leading up to the bridge (total destruction).
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RE: FITE 2

Post by Lobster »

The Soviet tank divisions start out with a somewhat historical number of tanks. Some have a very small number. And they are stuck with it. They cannot reach their official TOE. Yet during the historical Barbarossa campaign they added tanks to the divisions. This is impossible to do in the scenario. Why such a harsh break from history?

Edit:
I see all the infantry divisions start out stronger than historically so maybe you made it all balance out.
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RE: FITE 2

Post by gliz2 »

After some trial-by-error I conclude the following HOUSE rules to improve the gameplay in FITE2:
1. The Soviet player need to skip Turn 1.
For Turn 2 it is up to the players but so far I have found that the best is to allow only rsil transport movements, digging in and deployment changes (like "local reserve").
This simulates the initial shock and it's crucial for the whole Barbarossa. As the German player has zero flexibility on initial allocation of forces at least he should get the shock effect bonus to allow him to get a fighting chance for the objectives.
2. The Soviet player is not allowed to blown bridges until Turn 3. Again: to simulate the initial shock.
3. Major bridges (the ones on the major roads) can only be blown up by a dug in unit (with exception of tank and motorized recon units) or by any form of engineers.
4. Blowing major bridges is only allowed when in contact with the enemy. Rule of the thumb: enemy visible one hex away from the bridge means "in contact".
5. The defending player (e.g. in 41-42 by definition Soviet) should not attack the hexes taken by the attacker in attacker's phase.
This is quite a hard rule but it prevents the situation where only 6SP out of 90SP attacking stack takes control over the hex thus unrealisticly exposing itself to full blow of the opponent in next turn.
This one relates to the hexes. Normally in hex games the attacker is allowed to move any attacking unit to the hex. Hence the above rule makes sense (and a lot of difference) in this scenario.
6. Partisants need to be allowed. This will simulate the (very negative) impact of German politics on the military effort.
7. All type of stacking should be possible. It's ahistorical but so is the whole scenario. This rule gives much more flexibility to German player.

Kind requests to developer of FITE2
1. Could you add additional (perhaps as a Theatre Option) air transportation to Germans. It puzzels me why there is only room for 2 units of Brandenburgers.
2. Any chance of better description of all the options available.
For example when playing Soviets I struggled to find what was the result of dissolving Mech Corps.
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RE: FITE 2

Post by larryfulkerson »

2. The Soviet player is not allowed to blown bridges until Turn 3. Again: to simulate the initial shock.
3. Major bridges (the ones on the major roads) can only be blown up by a dug in unit (with exception of tank and motorized recon units) or by any form of engineers.
4. Blowing major bridges is only allowed when in contact with the enemy. Rule of the thumb: enemy visible one hex away from the bridge means "in contact".
5. The defending player (e.g. in 41-42 by definition Soviet) should not attack the hexes taken by the attacker in attacker's phase.
This is quite a hard rule but it prevents the situation where only 6SP out of 90SP attacking stack takes control over the hex thus unrealisticly exposing itself to full blow of the opponent in next turn.
This one relates to the hexes. Normally in hex games the attacker is allowed to move any attacking unit to the hex. Hence the above rule makes sense (and a lot of difference) in this scenario
The part about blowing bridges gets murky in the middle. I'm confused about what's allowed and what's not. I get the part about no dropping bridges until T3, and having to have leg movement troops do the dropping of the bridge, unless they are engineers, and all that but why not allow the defender to reclaim the bridge after the attacker grabs it? The attacker might be forced out of the hex during the defenders turn. So what?
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RE: FITE 2

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
2. The Soviet player is not allowed to blown bridges until Turn 3. Again: to simulate the initial shock.
3. Major bridges (the ones on the major roads) can only be blown up by a dug in unit (with exception of tank and motorized recon units) or by any form of engineers.
4. Blowing major bridges is only allowed when in contact with the enemy. Rule of the thumb: enemy visible one hex away from the bridge means "in contact".
5. The defending player (e.g. in 41-42 by definition Soviet) should not attack the hexes taken by the attacker in attacker's phase.
This is quite a hard rule but it prevents the situation where only 6SP out of 90SP attacking stack takes control over the hex thus unrealisticly exposing itself to full blow of the opponent in next turn.
This one relates to the hexes. Normally in hex games the attacker is allowed to move any attacking unit to the hex. Hence the above rule makes sense (and a lot of difference) in this scenario
The part about blowing bridges gets murky in the middle. I'm confused about what's allowed and what's not. I get the part about no dropping bridges until T3, and having to have leg movement troops do the dropping of the bridge, unless they are engineers, and all that but why not allow the defender to reclaim the bridge after the attacker grabs it? The attacker might be forced out of the hex during the defenders turn. So what?

And at what point to the Germans blow up bridges in the first turns. Because the bombed the hell out of them.
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RE: FITE 2

Post by larryfulkerson »

And at what point to the Germans blow up bridges in the first turns. Because they bombed the hell out of them.
Yeah, that's another thing that gives me heartburn...no bombing of bridges and no INT missions. Those rules ruin the game for me. Too unrealistic. For the Axis not to use it's planes to do those missions is like tying one hand behind your back and trying to fight that way. I'd rather not play the Axis side if I can't do that. If those rules are needed for balance then balance your scenario some other way. A special rule about the Soviet side skipping T1 is a better way to balance a scenario but it sounds rather harsh on the Soviets. Why not deploy them in garrison mode so that the Soviet player doesn't have to give it a single thought.
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