Inmunity of B17´s

[David_Perez]

I played a serie of games as japanese (scenario 17)
In all my games i saw the same problem

A group of 30, 40 , 50 B17 without fighter scort attacks one of my bases
with 50, 70, or even more zeroes in the air doing cap and... ¡ops!

Bombers sweeps my cap and bombard my airfield
they loose 2 or 3 bombs, and my base is knocked out for 2 or 3 days.
And I do not say nothing about the planes lost in the ground.

I don´t think that in "the real war" zero fighters play the bad role that plays in this game

fighters are made for kill bombers!!

japanese pillots skilled various tactics to use against bombers, like attack them from the front, etc...

and those fighters that retreats for defensive enemy fire.
I don´t imagine a japanese pilot retreating from bombers!!

[Christof]

Hi,

the model does not portray the inability of the japanese pilots, but more the problems they had with the armament of their planes to seriously damage a B-17.
Their most lethal weapon - the 20mm cannon - had a very limited number of rounds available.

Now I agree with you that the current model is too lopsided. More than once I had my airfield being blasted because 20-30 Zeros on CAP were all but ineffective. In reality they would "at least" damage some more bombers and/or destroy their aim.

Maybe it would be interesting to see how a japanese programming team would address that issue - among others.

Cheers,
Christof

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

I had most excellent results of killing and damaging B-17 (so that they crash
after action) with my Zeros.

Everything can be done - never give up!


I think that I once killed 20+ B-17's and 10+ B-24's in just one action for
insignificant fighetr looses on my side (I think I still have those AARs
somewhere)...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Mike_B20]

Don't worry, the programmers have balanced the issue of invulnerability of B17's in combat by making sure at least ten percent of them lose themselves on the way home.

[David_Perez]

Apollo, what do you do to obtain the incredible results that you say?
I´ll wait inpatiently for your answer...

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Apollo, what do you do to obtain the incredible results that you say?
I´ll wait inpatiently for your answer...

There is no big secret here...

It's combination of settings for Zero:

-Experience
-Morale
-Fatigue
-Altitudes

That's all.


Few of those AARs are below.

Please note that great portion of those damaged enemy planes crashed
on return trip home (I verified this using UV "Intel Screen" which is
not affected by FoW) while my damaged planes were mostly OK since I
was fighting above my own bases.


==================================================

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 09/07/42

Weather: Clear

Air attack on Lunga , at 38,40

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27
A6M3 Zero x 18
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 15

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 11
B-24D Liberator x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 7 damaged
B-24D Liberator x 1 destroyed
B-24D Liberator x 5 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 10

Port hits 4
Port supply hits 1

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator at 6000 feet

==================================================

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/09/42

Weather: Overcast

Air attack on Lunga , at 38,40

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 54
A6M3 Zero x 26

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 36
B-24D Liberator x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 3 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 1 damaged
D3A Val x 4 destroyed
D3A Val x 1 damaged
G4M1 Betty x 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 2 destroyed
B-17E Fortress x 25 damaged
B-24D Liberator x 11 damaged

ENS R.Fujita of F1/Tainan Daitai is credited with kill number 2

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 51

Airbase hits 7
Runway hits 31

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
6 x B-24D Liberator at 14000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator at 14000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
8 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Lunga , at 38,40

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 43
A6M3 Zero x 26

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 32

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 1 destroyed
B-17E Fortress x 17 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 12

Airbase hits 5
Runway hits 10

Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 14000 feet

==================================================

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/20/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Air attack on Irau , at 42,43

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 78
A6M3 Zero x 67
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 9

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 49

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 10 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 2 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 10 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 1 destroyed
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 23 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 12

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 3

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Irau , at 42,43

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 37
A6M3 Zero x 31

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 28

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 4 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 2 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 5 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 42
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 6

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on 141st Regiment, at 42,43

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 77
A6M3 Zero x 65

Allied aircraft
Hudson x 6
P-38G Lightning x 60
A-20B Boston x 9
B-25D Mitchell x 16
B-26B Marauder x 34
A-20B Havoc x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 16 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 8 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 7 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson x 4 destroyed
P-38G Lightning x 15 destroyed
P-38G Lightning x 15 damaged
A-20B Boston x 3 destroyed
A-20B Boston x 3 damaged
B-25D Mitchell x 1 destroyed
B-25D Mitchell x 4 damaged
B-26B Marauder x 2 destroyed
B-26B Marauder x 5 damaged
A-20B Havoc x 4 destroyed
A-20B Havoc x 2 damaged

1LT E. Brogden of 35th FS is credited with kill number 4

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 15

Attacking Level Bombers:
5 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet
3 x A-20B Boston at 3000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 1000 feet
2 x A-20B Havoc at 2000 feet
4 x B-26B Marauder at 1000 feet
3 x A-20B Havoc at 2000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 1000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 1000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 1000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 1000 feet
3 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet
5 x B-26B Marauder at 1000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 1000 feet
3 x A-20B Havoc at 2000 feet
1 x Hudson at 3000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 1000 feet

==================================================


Leo "Apollo11"

[Philwd]

Great results Leo! I hope to emulate them in the coming weeks. But what do you do when your opponent only bombs at night and your fighters won't intercept at night??

Quark

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Great results Leo! I hope to emulate them in the coming weeks.

Thanks!

But what do you do when your opponent only bombs at night and your fighters won't intercept at night??

Regarding night attacks - remember that this is double edged sword:

a)
Japanese player has Betty and Nell bombers which carry fewer bombs but they
can be is such great condition.

I my long PBEMs I have my Betty squadrons filed 90% and they have experience
of 95+ (no kidding - most of pilots 99/98 and few newer ones catching up) and
morale of constant 99.

They are simply devastating to enemy when employed at night and if range is
not to far away (10-15 HEXes). Also I can use them almost every night
repeatedly when weather is good with fatigue in 5-10-15 range and no
operational looses at all.

I was known to kill 5-10 enemy aircraft per night on enemy airfields (not to
count damage to supply).

Also if enemy is careless enough to leave his ships disbanded (i.e. anchored)
the night attacks by Betty bombers can wreck havoc all over the map (in such
cases I attack as far as they can go and accept few operational looses due to
that).


b)
B-17 and B-24 4-engine bombers (and other allied 2-engine bombers) can carry
much more bombs but you can never have them to have as high experience and
morale as Japanese counterparts.

And night missions are heavily dependable on skill (experience) and morale and
fatigue.


So... it's really opportunity for both sides...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Christof]

Excellent results.
I guess you played against a human opponent and destroying all those P38's should really lift your morale...

Those bombers came in at 14000, 7000 and 1000 feet. At what altitude would you set your CAP to make the best interception?

Thanks,
Chris

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Excellent results.
I guess you played against a human opponent and destroying all those P38's should really lift your morale...

Those bombers came in at 14000, 7000 and 1000 feet. At what altitude would you set your CAP to make the best interception?

Thanks,
Chris

Yes, this was my latest PBEM (my worthy opponent surrendered on Christmas day
1942 after I sunk his 5 CVs and heavily damaged 6th one which limped to
nearest base without looses on my side - we both simply realized that my
point advantage was "uncatchable" because I had 8000+ points lead).

Also that PBEM (as almost all of my PBEMs) were played with max altitude set
to 20000ft by "House Rule" (this "House Rule" is to eliminate stratospheric
combat which never was in UV timeframe 1942/1943 due to lack of equipment and
gear).

Thus in the spectrum of 100ft - 20000ft we both placed our aircraft.

I can't tell you how I arranged my fighters - but they were always specially
arranged. Sorry...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Veer]

I can't tell you how I arranged my fighters - but they were always specially
arranged. Sorry...


Leo "Apollo11"

hummffff......

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

hummffff......

There should always be some "secrets of the trade" that should not
be revealed...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Veer]

There should always be some "secrets of the trade" that should not
be revealed...


Leo "Apollo11"

Just don't take it to the grave with you sonny..