Possible Tech Bug

[Taxman66]

I observed a Tech increase that appears to be a bug given my understanding of the formula/rule:

Russia is active.
Russia is at Tech 0 with 1 chit invested in one of the Warfare Techs.
Russia should be getting a +1% Catch Up bonus from Germany
Russia should be getting a +1% Sharing bonus from the UK (Active and not surrendered)
This would put the minimum Tech increase at 4% (Random 2% - 7% + 1% + 1%).
Russia's increase in the Tech was only 3%.

[crispy131313]

I took another look at what I have going on in a game today, admittedly a mod, but look below:

UK & USA are both active and set to "share bonus" (double checked in the editor)
Research level 4 is set to advance 3% per turn
UK has spying and intelligence level 3, USA has 0 (My understanding is that they should share this right)
USA has Amphibious Warfare Level 3 currently (The Axis presumably does not)
USA has a single chit invested in Amphibious Warfare but it does not advance any turn, it is stuck at 0% permanently.

Based on the above, I think that the enemy spying & intelligence (which I know Germany is level 3) is not acting properly and instead of only negating the bonus 3% that USA would receive from UK's level 3 spying & intelligence it is ALSO cancelling out my 3% advance per turn entirely. Which to my understanding is a bug.

[crispy131313]

I'm going to quote Bill here. If spying and intelligence only negates the bonus I should still be advancing, and I can confirm I used to be able to advance my tech before the research update, this being stuck at 0% is new.

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Hi

Each new level of Spying & Intelligence increases your own research bonus by 1% and decreases your opponent’s bonus by 1%. If the enemy’s intelligence level is higher than yours, then it will just negate your own Spying & Intelligence. It won’t reduce your per turn base research % progression.

So in your example, Germany and the UK will negate each other's Spying & Intelligence.

Bill

[crispy131313]

I have also another example where with USSR, I had begun the game with Infantry Weapons I, and I had received Infantry Weapons II by November 1941, it is now April 1944 and I still have not upgraded to Infantry III. Despite having Spying and Tech I for about 30% of that time frame, and spying and tech II for the remainder of time, and research increments to achieve level 3 set at 4% per turn. My opponent confirmed he had received spying and tech III as Germany in early 1942, which is when everything went downhill. I am 100% sure that spying and tech of the Axis is bugging Allied research.

[Taxman66]

It was explained that S&I only adds to a countries tech increase if it is higher than the values of the opposing side. So if UK & GE are at the same levels, and are highest for their respective sides then no one gets a S&I bonus.

In another example if GE has S&I 2, IT has S&I 0, and UK has S&I 1 (with USA & USSR at 1 or 0) then: GE will get a bonus (1%), but IT will not.

________

As for your Mod, I don't know what the base settings actually do. Presumably a 5 (per Vanilla game setting) actually generates a random value from 2 - 7. Maybe a 3 generates a random value from 0 - 5, and somehow it is being weighted to 0 to often. Although your assumption about S&I working incorrectly could also be the problem, and explain what I observed in my first post.

[Taxman66]

Crispy, I have a suggestion for a test.

Create a simple mod base on Vanilla 1939 Storm with the following changes:
Set GE S&I to 3
Put an active chit into all techs for the UK, US, and USSR. Double chit 4 Techs each as well.

Then just fire off turns, without moving/playing. Just record tech advancements. Take particular attention to the lowest and highest increases.

Run a second test base on the 1942 scenario (where all countries are active).
Set GE S&I to 3, with Allies set S&I set to 0. Record results.

Then flip the 1939 test and set UK S&I to 3 and set an active chit or 2 for all GE and IT techs. Observe results. Repeat with IT as an active power from start.

If you set up the mods, I will help with the testing.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

In another example if GE has S&I 2, IT has S&I 0, and UK has S&I 1 (with USA & USSR at 1 or 0) then: GE will get a bonus (1%), but IT will not.

I was told all Allies participate in the highest S&I so in this example Italy would get the benefit. Hope this is the case because I stopped S&I for SU.


Manual

"Each new level of Spying & Intelligence increases your own research bonus by 1% and decreases your opponent’s bonus by 1%. If the enemy’s intelligence level is higher than yours, then it will just negate your own Spying & Intelligence. It won’t reduce your per turn base research % progression. The Spying & Intelligence levels of neutral Majors are also taken into account when determining results, and only the Major on each side with the highest level affects Research progress. "

[Taxman66]

Per a previous discussion they participate /share for defensive purposes (i.e. denying the other side a bonus), but do not share for gaining a bonus. In my last example GE would get the bonus as her value is greater than any other side, but Italy does not. Conversely no one on the Allied side (UK, US, USSR) would get a bonus as they are all behind Germany.

[Taxman66]

As a reminder to the developers there appears to be bug in the formula. Casual observence suggests the possibility of individual countries getting a penalty if behind the other side. Although other explanations/bugs are still possible.

[crispy131313]

"Only the Major on each side with the highest level affects Research progress." This is a pretty blanket statement that suggests if Level 3 is achieved, no further investment is beneficial. If I have level 3 with UK, I would assume that USA investment is not necessary for bonus or negating bonus.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

"Only the Major on each side with the highest level affects Research progress." This is a pretty blanket statement that suggests if Level 3 is achieved, no further investment is beneficial. If I have level 3 with UK, I would assume that USA investment is not necessary for bonus or negating bonus.

My understanding was if GB has lv 3 US 0 & SU 0 all three get the positive bonus, like they are all at 3.

This was clearly laid out in an older thread.

[Taxman66]

Not to my understanding.
Carefully read this old thread from The War Room: tm.asp?m=4266222

[PvtBenjamin]

So S&I is basically irrelevant for SU & IT? Neither is ever going to get the positive outcome.

GB,GE or US may get some temporary bonus. Unless of course you play someone who doesn't invest in S&I.

[Taxman66]

Ben, see this thread.
Also can we shift the general Tech discussion there (I'm just as guilty).

I would like to reserve this thread to hear back from the developers on what was observed and it's possibility of being a bug

Thanks

[Hubert Cater]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I observed a Tech increase that appears to be a bug given my understanding of the formula/rule:

Russia is active.
Russia is at Tech 0 with 1 chit invested in one of the Warfare Techs.
Russia should be getting a +1% Catch Up bonus from Germany
Russia should be getting a +1% Sharing bonus from the UK (Active and not surrendered)
This would put the minimum Tech increase at 4% (Random 2% - 7% + 1% + 1%).
Russia's increase in the Tech was only 3%.

Thanks for these posts and I'm still catching up on them as I'm doing some testing on my own and some further investigations to really make sure everything is working as intended or not.

In the meantime I can answer some points like this one. For this one I would say it is working as intended as the USSR does not share research with the Western Allies, so the random lower range would I believe be 3% and not 4%.

[Hubert Cater]

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

I took another look at what I have going on in a game today, admittedly a mod, but look below:

UK & USA are both active and set to "share bonus" (double checked in the editor)
Research level 4 is set to advance 3% per turn
UK has spying and intelligence level 3, USA has 0 (My understanding is that they should share this right)
USA has Amphibious Warfare Level 3 currently (The Axis presumably does not)
USA has a single chit invested in Amphibious Warfare but it does not advance any turn, it is stuck at 0% permanently.

Based on the above, I think that the enemy spying & intelligence (which I know Germany is level 3) is not acting properly and instead of only negating the bonus 3% that USA would receive from UK's level 3 spying & intelligence it is ALSO cancelling out my 3% advance per turn entirely. Which to my understanding is a bug.

I believe the confusion here is that section 9.2.5. Spying & Intelligence of the Manual under page 98, also falls under the idea of research sharing, but it does not.

There are two catch up bonuses applied which are cumulative:

1) Higher Friendly Research Catch Up Bonus (based on another friendly Major that is sharing its research with you)
2) Higher Enemy Research Catch Up Bonus (based on an enemy Major that has a higher research level than you)

After that:

3) Spying and Intelligence is also a factor, but this is only based on your own level of Spying and Intelligence relative to the highest enemy level of Spying and Intelligence.

For example, catch up bonus (1) will take into account the research level difference between let's say the UK and the US as they share research for any one category where chits have been invested, but when Spying and Intelligence differences (3) are considered between the UK and let's say Germany (for UK research calculations), US Intelligence would not be factored in.

Hopefully this makes sense!

[Hubert Cater]

I'm going to quote Bill here. If spying and intelligence only negates the bonus I should still be advancing, and I can confirm I used to be able to advance my tech before the research update, this being stuck at 0% is new.

This part however might be a bug, I'll have to run a test on my end to investigate further.

[Taxman66]

Hubert, can you address my question from the first post please.

[Hubert Cater]

Hi Taxman66, I thought I did? If not please let me know what the exact question is, thanks!

[Taxman66]

On my phone so too hard to copy and paste.

In short:
USSR, US, UK, GE, IT all active and not surrendered (circa early 1942).

UK and GE at tech level 1 for Armored Warfare, while USSR at level 0 with a single chit invested.
USSR S&I at 0, best of UK & USA S&I at 2
GE S&I presumably at 2 but could be 3.
IT S&I unknown but extremely unlikely better than 2.

Current understanding of formula from manual and previous discussions with you (see link in previous post above) indicate that minimum per turn increase should be 4%. Observed a real increase of 3%.

Current understanding of formula with given situation:
A + B + C + D
A. Random generated value of 2-7.
B. Catch up bonus of 1 (GE Tech level - USSR Tech level).
C. Sharing bonus of 1 (UK Tech level - USSR Tech level). *manual indicates sharing works in this direction for Russia, but Russia does not provide bonus to USA or UK
D. S&I bonus of 0 since USSR S&I <= best of Axis powers S&I.