S&I strategy discussion

[Taxman66]

I don't want to clutter up Hubert's Research thread with a discussion on strategy:

Sugar last wrote:

Why should the chance be small, if all invest in the first turn?

You don`t want to be faster in research than the UK, but the Axis. 3 Chits = 3 times the chance for a breahthrough against 2 times the Axis, or even to be faster without breakthrough. The goal is to reach every lvl of S%I at first, thereby slowing down the enemy's research and minimizing chances of a breakthrough.

If you succeed, the following researches are of course also accelerated, including ind.. If the outcome of the race for S%I is clear, you can resell the chits of the obsolet nations, they don`t count anyway anymore.

Sugar, which Soviet and USA Techs are you selling off to invest in S&I on the first turn?

USSR starts with 45 MPP and chits in:
AT (150)
Tanks (200)
Fighters (175)
Production (175)
Industry (200)

I suppose they could do it if they sold off AT & Advance Fighters. Personally I hate the idea of basically forever giving up any chance of contesting the skies. Yes, they'll never be equal, but if there is never any pressure then all (or nearly all) those German Fighters can face off against the Western Allies.
If you sell off the Production chit then you are paying (much) more for your units over the long haul. You'd get back 87 MPP, so after buying 11 Armies (or say 5 Armies & 12 Corps) you've broken even (Actually it is less than that once Infantry Weapons & AA Tech are available to new units).


USA starts with 35 MPP and chits in:
Fighters (175)
Hvy Bombers (175)
Naval Weapons (175)
Long Range (175)
Artillery (125)
Amphib (100)
Logistics x2 (100)

I can see an argument to sell of the Arty chit, but I wouldn't sell any of the others, the USA is going to need them all.

[crispy131313]

If the bug I found and Hubert confirmed is acting as I understand, whereas the disadvantaged player was also having the ceiling capped of their regular research, rather then only having the bonus capped, the side that has the higher S&I will no longer have such a great advantage in S&I. With the fix, allowing UK to take the reigns of S&I will be a lot less risky and could open USA to a wider range of tech to invest in early.

[Taxman66]

Additionally as Hubert clarified whichever Allied country is 'ahead' of the Axis is the only one that is going to benefit with a Tech increase.
If S&I levels are US 1, UK 2, USSR 1, GE 1, IT 0 then only the UK gets a bonus.

Also with the current RAW (Rules as Written)
If S&I levels are US 0, UK 0, USSR 1 (but not mobilized), GE 1, IT 0 then GE still gets the bonus and the USSR doesn't.

[Taxman66]

Can you explain the bug, with an example?
At first blush it sounds like the S&I level of the highest member on a side is not (fully?) supplying defensive value to her allies.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

"Each new level of Spying & Intelligence increases your own research bonus by 1% and decreases your opponent’s bonus by 1%. If the enemy’s intelligence level is higher than yours, then it will just negate your own Spying & Intelligence. It won’t reduce your per turn base research % progression. "

Doesn't this statement contradict itself?

Hi

Let me put it another way: the enemy having a higher S&I level won't reduce normal research rates, it will only prevent your own S&I from making your research any faster.

Hopefully that explains it better?

I think this has gotten more confusing with all the posts. Please help.

S&I can't slow someone elses base research only accelerate yours & prevent your opponents from accelerating. Or at least that is what is intended.

correct?

Is this true of S&I impact on breakthroughs or is there another formula?

[Taxman66]

I think this has gotten more confusing with all the posts. Please help. S&I can't slow someone elses base research only accelerate yours & prevent your opponents from accelerating. Or at least that is what is intended. correct? Is this true of S&I impact on breakthroughs or is there another formula?

S&I is intended to work as you describe (provide a single country a bonus if ahead of all opponents).
However, Crispy has found a bug. I'm not clear on exactly the details, but it appears to be curtailing the maximum range (and thus reducing the mean expected each turn) for those that are lagging.
Awaiting further explanation.

Hubert clarified (and modified his post): All bonuses (S&I, Sharing & Catch Up) a country receives also add to the chance for a breakthrough.
Base chance 0% (under the 45 minimum threshold), 5% (1 chit) or 10% (2 chits).
example: With +3 in bonuses those become: 0% (still under the threshold), 8% (1 chit +3%), 13% (2 chits +3%).

Additional note:
Wording now indicates a country will only receive a single Friendly Catch Up bonus (aka Sharing bonus) and a Single Hostile Catch Up bonus based on the highest amounts.
This doesn't normally come into play in regards to the Friendly Catch Up since the Axis side only has 2 powers, and the Allied side has only 2 powers that share (given both have to be mobilized, remember USSR doesn't share) at any one time. I'm discounting liberated France as they're hopeless anyway.
However for the Hostile Catch Up this means that a country will only benefit from the highest difference and not all the differences.
example (say Ground Attack): GE 3, IT 1, USA 0. When USA invests a chit in Ground Attack they will get a Hostile Catch Up bonus of +3, not +4.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66



Hubert clarified (and modified his post): All bonuses (S&I, Sharing & Catch Up) a country receives also add to the chance for a breakthrough.
Base chance 0% (under the 45 minimum threshold), 5% (1 chit) or 10% (2 chits).
example: With +3 in bonuses those become: 0% (still under the threshold), 8% (1 chit +3%), 13% (2 chits +3%).

very helpful ty

In the case of S&I & breakthroughs is it a net number like in base research.


ex: GB S&I lv 3 -GE lv 2 - SU 0 -


Does just GB get a breakthrough bonus or is the bonus somehow based on level?

[Taxman66]

I believe that in your example (assuming Italy is not at lv 3) then UK would get a +1 S&I bonus that would apply to both normal increases and to breakthrough chances (making them 6% or 11% for Techs above the threshold before accounting for any other bonuses). GE would not get any S&I bonus, nor would SU.

[Rannug61]

Hi

I don't understand all details of S&I but I have a simple question; What good is it for Russia to invest in S&I more then being able to see hidden units. I assume that Germany has lvl 1 or 2 when Russia can consider doing this investment. Is there an important disadvantage if they don't invest and is there a advantage if they do?

[PvtBenjamin]

Great thanks again

So S&I can't slow someone elses base research/breakthroughs only accelerate yours (ahead in research) & prevent your opponents from accelerating (ahead or tied).


So why do you invest in SU S&I? SU MPP's are scarce early it makes no sense

GB & GE start with a S&I chit, with the lower breakthroughs its very unlikely SU is going to get & stay ahead of GE.

GB & US have the resources early to lead Allies on S&I.

If you don't invest SU in S&I SU research will never slow more than the base. The chances of SU getting the benefit of passing GE are marginal and at best for a limited time.


GB & US have it covered that GE research wont accelerate for a long time.

In the end if GB/US & GE all aggressively invest in S&I its a wash. Neither side gets an advantage for very long.


There is an advantage to spotting but if GB + US are at lv 3 they have that covered.

[Rannug61]

Thanx, so no more S&I for Russia if your playing a "normal" game

[Taxman66]

That, in a nutshell, is my argument with Sugar. Sugar contends that everyone should sell the Farm to get S&I going.

The unit reveal effects of S&I (at 1% reveal chance per level) are checked independently for each country that has S&I. So if UK is at 3 and US is at 3, each and every unit is checked twice at 3%. If the USSR joins in then each unit would be checked three times (with the 3rd being at whatever level the USSR has obtained).

[ArmouredLion]

Thanks for the lesson all... I had very little understanding of S&I and didn't really consider its importance...

[Sugar]

According to the manual, S&I does indeed slow the enemy's research (depending on the difference of the highest lvls of both sides), and I don't know of any changes regarding this.

The most redundant chit is prod. of course, especially in case of the Sovyets with their cheap corps and armies; followed by AT. If there weren't the DEs for Germany and the SU noone would ever contemplate the building of such slow and expensive units with very ltd capabilities. You're gonna need lvl 3 and mot. to withstand inf.-attacks and to ever reach an enemy tank.

At least our esteemed developers are thankfully giving away their knowledge of how this works, perhaps they're willing to enlighten us further in this case.

[Hubert Cater]

I've re-read the relevant section in the Manual regarding Spying and Intelligence, and I can see how it might not be as clear as it should be.

Essentially Spying and Intelligence helps you if you are ahead of your opponent and matching levels negate each other, which is what this line in the Manual is trying to suggest:

Each new level of Spying & Intelligence increases
your own research bonus by 1% and decreases
your opponent’s bonus by 1%.

This just means if let's say the UK has S&I Level-1 then it would have a 1% bonus, but if Germany also has Level-1, then the UK no longer has a 1% bonus, and neither would Germany have a 1% bonus, they essentially cancel each other out.

But if you are ahead of your opponent, then your opponent's bonus is simply reduced to 0% and does not further reduce their per turn base research % progression. This would be the relevant section suggesting this, albeit from the opposite point of view, but it goes both ways:

If the enemy’s
intelligence level is higher than yours, then it will
just negate your own Spying & Intelligence. It won’t
reduce your per turn base research % progression.

Further examples:

- UK has Level-2, Germany has Level-1, then only the UK would have a 1% bonus (Germany would have a 0% bonus)
- UK has Level-3, Germany has Level-1, then only the UK would have a 2% bonus (Germany would have a 0% bonus)
- UK, USA, USSR have Level-3, Germany has Level-2, then the UK, USA and USSR would all have a 1% bonus (Germany would have a 0% bonus)

[Sugar]

So the correct and not "misleading" text would be: Each new level of Spying & Intelligence increases your own research bonus by 1%, while your opponent's bonus is cancelled?

It should also be mentioned in the same sentence that each new lvl only increases your own research, if your opponents lvl isn't higher or equal to your newly achieved lvl.

Sorry to be nickpicky, but the sentence in the manual is simply not true; the opponents research is not decreased, and actually your own research is only increased under certain circumstances.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: Sugar


The most redundant chit is prod. of course, especially in case of the Soviets with their cheap corps and armies; followed by AT. If there weren't the DEs for Germany and the SU noone would ever contemplate the building of such slow and expensive units with very ltd capabilities. You're gonna need lvl 3 and mot. to withstand inf.-attacks and to ever reach an enemy tank.

Completely agree on AT, used to on Production Tech but have changed my mind.


AT - Effects only 1 unit type which doesn't participate in Armor warfare - the SU AT chit is the only Allied chit I sell at the beginning of the game. I only invest in AT for any side very late in the game.


Production Technology Def -

"Each new level of Production Technology research decreases unit costs and the cost of Manual Upgrades by 5%. " - Manual

I used to sell the SU & GB Prod chit at the beginning of the game but realized I was making a big mistake. I wasn't focusing on the long term value.

First - Prod reduces upgrade cost as well as purchases.

Analysis (SU using conservative numbers) -


I'm not sure of exact number of turns per year but lets say its 17, the MPPS are average purchases and upgrades per turn ( a conservative guess)

1940 - research not accomplished yet
1941 - 300Mpps x 17 x .05 = 210
1942 - 700MPP's x 17 x .05 = 595
1943 - 700MPP's x 17 x .05 = 595
1944 - 700MPP's x 17 x 05 = 595

At the beginning of the game I was selling 1/2 a Prod Tech chit for 87 pts that from '41 - '44 would save me almost 2000 pts. The upside is selling it would accelerate investing in Ind Prod or Inf Wpns by 2 turns.

I still don't consider Prod tech a top tier '40 - '41 research (I prefer Ind Tech). I do now (after all non-naval warfare and C&C research accomplished) start to invest in Prod Tech (1942). When the SU (similar with US & GB) is in full mobilization the break even is about 1/4 - 1/3 a year (175/595).

So Sugar when I'm playing a highly skilled player like yourself who will take a lot of real estate and drive my MPP's way down I can still buy & upgrade on the cheap (- 10-25%). When you get Prod Tech to lv 3/4 (-15/20%) you buy back recently destroyed (*) troops for almost nothing.

[Hubert Cater]

ORIGINAL: Sugar
So the correct and not "misleading" text would be: Each new level of Spying & Intelligence increases your own research bonus by 1%, while your opponent's bonus is cancelled?

This actually wouldn't be true either because the effect goes both ways, i.e. if you are cancelling your opponent's S&I Bonus, then your opponent's S&I Bonus is also then technically cancelling yours.

It should also be mentioned in the same sentence that each new lvl only increases your own research, if your opponents lvl isn't higher or equal to your newly achieved lvl.

Agreed and this is what we were hoping the following sentence in the Manual would have suggested, and again only because the effect naturally goes both ways.

If the enemy’s
intelligence level is higher than yours, then it will
just negate your own Spying & Intelligence.

Sorry to be nickpicky, but the sentence in the manual is simply not true; the opponents research is not decreased, and actually your own research is only increased under certain circumstances.

This is a tricky one because in terms of only increased under certain circumstances we do mention when your S&I bonus can be negated, and since the effects of achieving general levels of S&I research goes both ways, it is technically possible that an S&I bonus can actually be decreased without being cancelled.

For example, Germany has S&I Level-1, and the UK has S&I Level-2, then the UK's S&I bonus will have decreased from 2 to 1.


* * *


The issue in my mind with that particular sentence in the Manual is we tried to describe what Spying and Intelligence actually does for you in general, i.e. the impact it will have for the research calculation for your country when you've achieved a level > 0, while at the same time suggesting what kind of effect it can potentially have on your opponent if they too have a level > 0, perhaps too compactly.

An improvement would be along the following lines:

Each new level of Spying & Intelligence increases your own research bonus by 1%. However, this can be impacted if your opponent is also researching and achieving Spying & Intelligence levels of its own. The impact can either be to decrease or to negate your research bonus entirely.

For example, if the enemy’s intelligence level is higher than yours, then it will negate your own Spying & Intelligence. But if your intelligence level is higher than your enemy's, your Spying and Intelligence bonus will be the difference between the two levels, e.g. Germany has intelligence Level-1, and the UK has intelligence Level-2, then the UK's research bonus will have decreased from 2 to 1. If both you and your enemy's highest Spying and Intelligence levels are the same, then they simply cancel each other out until one or the other achieve a new higher level.


I'll coordinate with Bill (he'll likely have his own suggestions/tweaks for improvements here), and we'll look into rewriting this section accordingly.

[Taxman66]

I don't sell starting Production Techs, but hardly ever invest in them.
If I'm going to do make an economy investment I'll invest in Industry instead.

Then the Allies find themselves so far behind on all the other Techs (Tanks, Fighters, Ground Attack, Various Warfare, ASW, etc...) AND having to build units (USA & USSR) and/or in the middle of fighting active theaters (UK: Egypt & Atlantic or possibly Sea Lion, USSR: defending homeland) that there is no room for Production Tech investment.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin



I still don't consider Prod tech a top tier '40 - '41 research (I prefer Ind Tech). I do now (after all non-naval warfare and C&C research accomplished) start to invest in Prod Tech (1942). When the SU (similar with US & GB) is in full mobilization the break even is about 1/4 - 1/3 a year (175/595).

The research you mention are certainly a top priority but when there is a slot open you might want to think about Prod Tech.

There is certainly not one answer here,its much more compelling than I used to think.


US Prod Tech 125 pts