2by3 to publish Steel Tigers

[76mm]

As described in the article linked in the first post of this thread, it was announced at a Slitherine Group annual conference. The text below was taken from the article:

Unlike the last couple of years, this year’s Sltherine Group annual conference is not open to the usual press suspects, instead it is a mainly developer only get together to discuss the future of digital wargames. However, the introductory session was broadcast on a live Twitch stream and as it included speeches from J.D. McNeil and Marco Minoli it did shed some light on developments within the biggest player in the traditional computer wargames market.
***
More importantly for the future, it was announced that the staff previously developing games will now become a new “tech support” division being set up to support other developers whose games are being published by the group...and it was mentioned that the first game to use this engine will be called Steel Tigers and is being developed by 2 by 3 Games (i.e. Gary Grigsby, Joel Billings and Keith Brors). The name is also intriguing as it suggests we will be looking at a “spiritual successor” (to use the over used phrase) of Steel Panthers …

Steel Tigers is now obviously not the first game to be released with the Archon engine, although it was supposed to be. Also, this article clearly states that the game is being developed by 2x3 (with some technical support from Matrix), while Iain later said that the game is being developed by Matrix.

[MrsWargamer]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


MrsWargamer, just curious, did you try a Combat Mission game?

I have the first 3.

Never was fond of the view controls, a lot of fuss and fiddle. Like the WEGO aspect. I would likely prefer Close Combat More if it was WEGO. No view control issues.

[Zap]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I don't see mocking and deriding, I just see some folks having fun in the way they always do with a release they want but have no significant info on yet. Inevitably, phantoms, ghosts and vapor start to be discussed.

Whether a project is ready to be discussed publicly unfortunately has nothing to do with what's going on in the forum. I can tell you 2by3 are quite busy and so are we. When it comes to Steel Tigers, it's a big project and has already had a great deal of time put into it with much more to come. When it's ready to be discussed, we'll be happy to share information. Until then, all the silence means is that it's still in development.

Regards,

- Erik

That all sounds reasonable and plausible Erik.
But reality is rarely reasonable and that's not plausible, it the truth.
You might not see it as some guys just having fun. Maybe it isn't though.

I'm already no longer interested in their game.
I couldn't care less if they are close, or if it's 2 years away.
Chances are it wears a price tag close to the usual.
I can't see myself spending 60-80 bucks on a product that lost my loyalty, when I can just continue to play Steel Panthers for one thing.
I think the window for Steel Tigers is not only closed, but, it's looking like it has been bricked up too.
That game should have appeared between 2010 and 2015.

I have no plans to buy War in the East2, I'm not really playing War in the East1
Maybe they make enough on their titles to make it worth it. Not my business. Also not my problem though.

I'm not interested in graphics, I just want a good performing game.
I personally consider Battle Academy to be a superior game to anything that takes hours to perform a turn.
I'm unsure what they are planning to do to make Steel Tigers a replacement for why we play Steel Panthers.
But I'm guessing I'll probably be too busy playing another squad level tactical title at the time.

It happens all the time, you arrive to the market after another similar product got there first, and often it's too late. Happens with movies all the time.

MrsWargamer, just curious, did you try a Combat Mission game?

The bottom line is the outcome. If the game meets the expectations, no matter how disgruntled one is. It will sell many copies. I expect all the negative comments will be left behind and those skeptical will embrace the game wholeheartedly. So heres to Steel Tigers meeting everyone's expectations. A tall order but 2by3 has in the past satisfied with many a great games. There is no reason to think differently now.

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: Zap
The bottom line is the outcome. If the game meets the expectations, no matter how disgruntled one is. It will sell many copies. I expect all the negative comments will be left behind and those skeptical will embrace the game wholeheartedly. So heres to Steel Tigers meeting everyone's expectations. A tall order but 2by3 has in the past satisfied with many a great games. There is no reason to think differently now.

This is the correct observation. If the game is as popular as many think, it will be a must buy and 80-90% of those crying and moaning about the delay will end up buying it, and become enthusiastic. I'm usually not in favor of customers threatening buy-sell decisions on the behavior of the designer, although certainly if the designer/seller is discourteous and attacks you (for any reason). But to manipulate design or timing of the game? No, not a good look.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Zap
...2by3 has in the past satisfied with many a great games. There is no reason to think differently now.

Well, no reason other than the fact that 2x3 hasn't said a single word about the game in the four years since it was announced, and the fact that it is not even clear at this point if 2x3 is developing the game any more.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
...80-90% of those crying and moaning about the delay...

Actually, I don't recall anyone "crying and moaning" about the delay--people are crying and moaning about the complete lack of communication. Big difference.

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
...80-90% of those crying and moaning about the delay...

Actually, I don't recall anyone "crying and moaning" about the delay--people are crying and moaning about the complete lack of communication. Big difference.

What difference does it make? You aren't getting it any quicker and I assume they have nothing material to say right now. Why so impatient? How old are you people? Just sit back and wait. There are plenty of other games to play right now, board and computer.

[Zap]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Zap
...2by3 has in the past satisfied with many a great games. There is no reason to think differently now.

Well, no reason other than the fact that 2x3 hasn't said a single word about the game in the four years since it was announced, and the fact that it is not even clear at this point if 2x3 is developing the game any more.

Eric gave the answer in post #306. But that does not satisfy you? I don't need any more explanation, I get what he is saying politely, they are not ready to divulge more info at this point. In other words he's asking us to be patient and trust their judgement.

[MrsWargamer]

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
...80-90% of those crying and moaning about the delay...

Actually, I don't recall anyone "crying and moaning" about the delay--people are crying and moaning about the complete lack of communication. Big difference.

What difference does it make? You aren't getting it any quicker and I assume they have nothing material to say right now. Why so impatient? How old are you people? Just sit back and wait. There are plenty of other games to play right now, board and computer.

This thread is comically chasing its tale now.
Fact, the devs haven't said a thing in 4 years publicly, nothing.
Fact, none of us has a real clue if the game is coming or not.
Fact, none of us have anything to go on, whether we will like it or not.
Fact, I'm 57, and that means OLD, no point in sugar-coating it. I could die tomorrow in my sleep. Or not for another 30 years. I have plans for old age, and most of it revolves around sitting and reading my romance novels.
Yes, there are indeed other games to play. Like the actual Steel Panthers.
And I'm following another design currently that might not be a successor to Steel Panthers, it might actually be better and closer to why I wanted to play Steel Panthers in the first place.

It's a well known FACT, that most ASL players respond to "what other games do you play?" with "What are these other games you speak of?"
Most of the Steel Panthers community isn't really anxiously awaiting Steel Tigers, they're actively playing Steel Panthers. If it ain't broke, don't fix it eh.
And if Steel Tigers isn't essentially Steel Panthers with fresh paint, they could well just snub it out of hand. And who knows, maybe that's why we don't have this game called Steel Tigers. Because they can't actually replace Steel Panthers.
Since ASL arrived, others have tried to copy it, and done to my opinion, a lame and in some cases lousy job of it. Advanced Tobruk is a total crock example.

I'm not planning to wait forever on this game.
And that's not some impatient 20 something wanting their PS4 fix now.
I have no intention of sitting for hours in front of a computer in my 60s. Might not even be an option.
And inasmuch as it is MY demographic that invented wargaming, I'll say it, most of the target market isn't in their 20s.

[Hexagon]

Well, true is that you cant ask for "trust" with 4 years of total silence, not a simple real clue about whats going to be "Steel tigers" out of "Steel Panthers successor" tag, that is something with a double lecture... because sure is going to attract old SP players BUT at same time use the nostalgia card is going to made you simple cant spam one of that random craps like i see in last 4 years.

If you are unable to show or talk about your product in 4 years or you are working in a government secret project or if you are doing a game you simple dont have something to show or what you have done is not good enough...HELL in these 4 years even someebody had time to create a "Close Combat" from 0!!! well other option is you have an idea and you dont want customers say you are wrong... remember this is made to appear in a shop and pay real money to have it and again, we dont talk about a new game, we talk about a game that wants be the modern version of the best tactical WWII wargame in 90s (i know, CC and CM... but SP still is unique offering full war with full nations with full hardware).

I think more than trust this become a case of "faith" and well, i reserve my faith for familty/friends and the above Guy and if we talk about money only first [8|]


PD: other point is if i were 2by3 member i try show something in the moment appear a game showing content everyday that is in same market target my game is going to enter... as others said is not only release is release in time and not arrive late to find your niche occupied.

[Zap]

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

ORIGINAL: 76mm


Actually, I don't recall anyone "crying and moaning" about the delay--people are crying and moaning about the complete lack of communication. Big difference.

What difference does it make? You aren't getting it any quicker and I assume they have nothing material to say right now. Why so impatient? How old are you people? Just sit back and wait. There are plenty of other games to play right now, board and computer.

And I'm following another design currently that might not be a successor to Steel Panthers, it might actually be better and closer to why I wanted to play Steel Panthers in the first place.



It might and it might not. But you still have to wait for that game. If you can be patient for that any reason you can't be patient for steel tigers?


And if Steel Tigers isn't essentially Steel Panthers with fresh paint, they could well just snub it out of hand. And who knows, maybe that's why we don't have this game called Steel Tigers. Because they can't actually replace Steel Panthers.

Your negative thought "maybe it'll be this or maybe it won't be that" has no factual basis. For no reason, your worrying about something unknown and creating your own nightmares.


If the game is good enough people will buy it and play it regardless if you or I are six feet under. Seriously, MrsWargamer the drama is a bit much.

[Erik Rutins]

As a separate discussion, it is absolutely an art rather than a science to decide when to announce a game and how much to say. We normally do wait now until a game is quite far along before even beginning to discuss it. In the case of Steel Tigers, we instead announced it right as development started, which is unusual for us but the demand for it was such that we did not want to remain completely silent. The announcement had no estimate of development time or release date. It was simply a heads up that "Hey, we are going to do this". I know folks bring their own assumptions with them when reading such things, but we have been careful not to promise any particular timeline and to just periodically confirm that it is in the works and is a huge project for us. Therefore while I understand that waiting can generate negative emotions, I can't see a reason to say "I will no longer even look at it even when it's ready", but your mileage may vary.

We will not be releasing any additional information until the game is getting close to release precisely because we don't want to get you too excited and then have you wait for a long time. The benchmarks to look for are the recruitment of public beta testers and the release of significant gameplay information and screenshots. At those points you will know that the game is in the final stretch.

Regards,

- Erik

[Zap]

Thank you Eric, finally we can put this thread to bed.

[Hexagon]

Everybody has his own opinion, for me i simple dont see any motive to move ST from "vaporware area".

Age made me trust from 0 to nothing in words and only 50% in things i can see with my own eyes and well, 4 years of nothing receive from me the same.

PD: i have half interest and half [&:] in a game showing videos, images... in general showing something...

[Capitaine]

2by3 understand all this I'm certain. They are doing what they're doing (or not doing) for a reason. If it annoys you, write the game off for now, like many are resorting to. When it comes out, you can be pleasantly surprised. Or not. It's not that big of a deal. It'll come out when it's ready. I don't know what the problem is. Consider it vaporware for now if you like. It doesn't matter. They aren't asking for pre-orders.

[MrsWargamer]

ORIGINAL: Zap

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

ORIGINAL: Capitaine



What difference does it make? You aren't getting it any quicker and I assume they have nothing material to say right now. Why so impatient? How old are you people? Just sit back and wait. There are plenty of other games to play right now, board and computer.

And I'm following another design currently that might not be a successor to Steel Panthers, it might actually be better and closer to why I wanted to play Steel Panthers in the first place.



It might and it might not. But you still have to wait for that game. If you can be patient for that any reason you can't be patient for steel tigers?


And if Steel Tigers isn't essentially Steel Panthers with fresh paint, they could well just snub it out of hand. And who knows, maybe that's why we don't have this game called Steel Tigers. Because they can't actually replace Steel Panthers.

Your negative thought "maybe it'll be this or maybe it won't be that" has no factual basis. For no reason, your worrying about something unknown and creating your own nightmares.


If the game is good enough people will buy it and play it regardless if you or I are six feet under. Seriously, MrsWargamer the drama is a bit much.

No factual basis? Really Zap? I have four years of silence as my basis point.
I'm not 'worrying' that's you putting words in my mouth.
I've already made my choice. Said it earlier. I've jumped ship. I'm following another title. 2by3 has already lost my sale. Unsure they care. But that's the point eh. No one has a clue if they care at all.
I wouldn't count on imaginary people to buy this game in say 2 years time. 2 years in game design is kinda a very long time.

Drama? hardly. I'd need to care to be dramatic. I'm here only as a wargamer discussing a topic. I have no vested interest.

[MrsWargamer]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

As a separate discussion, it is absolutely an art rather than a science to decide when to announce a game and how much to say. We normally do wait now until a game is quite far along before even beginning to discuss it. In the case of Steel Tigers, we instead announced it right as development started, which is unusual for us but the demand for it was such that we did not want to remain completely silent. The announcement had no estimate of development time or release date. It was simply a heads up that "Hey, we are going to do this". I know folks bring their own assumptions with them when reading such things, but we have been careful not to promise any particular timeline and to just periodically confirm that it is in the works and is a huge project for us. Therefore while I understand that waiting can generate negative emotions, I can't see a reason to say "I will no longer even look at it even when it's ready", but your mileage may vary.

We will not be releasing any additional information until the game is getting close to release precisely because we don't want to get you too excited and then have you wait for a long time. The benchmarks to look for are the recruitment of public beta testers and the release of significant gameplay information and screenshots. At those points you will know that the game is in the final stretch.

Regards,

- Erik

Really Erik?
This game is a one of instance to my knowledge. I can't think of another title being treated this way by its devs.
Their actions are ONLY doing harm. There is NO good being accomplished by the silence.
No one is demanding screenshots. No one is demanding any form of detail about the game at all.
All we are asking is for one of the 3 to come, say hello, talk to us a few moments.
At least that's all I'm asking.

I HAVE dumped games based on NOT liking the creators in the past.
Yep, I've refused to buy something even if it was worth something, all based on my not liking the source.
I'm no one's assured cash source.
There's a well known site that markets wargames I won't honour with my money all because I don't like how they do business.

[MrsWargamer]

ORIGINAL: Zap

Thank you Eric, finally we can put this thread to bed.

Believe it when I see it
No rules have been broken, or even bent.

[solops]

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

ORIGINAL: Zap

Thank you Eric, finally we can put this thread to bed.

Believe it when I see it
No rules have been broken, or even bent.

+1
Thread is informative.

[Zovs]

Dear Mrs Wargamer

There's a well known site that markets wargames I won't honour with my money all because I don't like how they do business.

Knowing your basic history, can I venture a guess if that publisher is the infamous Critical Hit?

I had some bad dealings with CH, I purchased Omaha West and East for $299 when it first came out, and then kept updating it, now they are like $129 a piece. Plus all the versions and re-packaging and reselling of regurgitated products.