Call for database titan updates

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:51 am

Here's the deal, Over the last week I've been going through my titan database, taking at look at every titan and, if possible, adjusting heat sinks and armor types to get better numbers. Virtually no changes, except improving heat dissapation, maybe a increased level in a component or a few extra points of armor if I had wieght leftover, but no reductions as that is more of a designers dissision. I want to keep the design as close to the original designers intention as possible, and striping armor and components goes agianst that. I don't want my database filled with design principles that I tend to use, as other good principles are just as valid, although I may personaly not use them as much as the ones I tend to favor.

The changes from ToS 1.4 to WS significantly changed some design paragrims. A lot of titans suffered in the heat catagory, some effectively loosing well over a level in heat regulation (but none crippling). some weren't effected, and a few even gained. But a vast majority.... changed.
Also, designers have had a considerable amount of time since 1.4 to further fine tune thier designs, finding that slightly better combonation or tradeoff. I want my database titans to be as mean as possible, not as much fun if it has slightly inferior designs, thats what the balance button is for.

What I'd like, Is if anyone who has a titan in the WS database and has redesigned it to better fit within the WS rules or have just tweeked thier design, to post the updated version. PrinceCorrin, Iceman, and myself have already done this for a couple of titans. I guess this is sorta of a call for others to do the same, just to let the designers out there to know that at least I am interested.

btw. whoever modified the assaults over from 1.4 to WS did a great job! It's the lower wieght titans that benefit the most from heat regulator/armor swapping ( a little extra weight goes a lot further)

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:09 am

And if anyone else is interested, here's the updated version on the Crucible. It suffered quite a bit heat-wise and it was always a rather 'warm' titan. I got the heat dissapation almost back to where it was but had to sacrifice some ammo to do it. Sacking ammo was my designer's call. No big earthshattering changes just tweeking.
BTW. this is one my favs... sometimes for fun I'll just flamer them till they explode.... BWAHHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Titan Name: Crucible Close Combat Medium Titan
Chassis: Krios K-M4 Design: Bblue
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight: 99.9t (100t maximum) Height : 11 [meter]
Bmt : 24 (50 kph) Reduce Heat: -2.97C/sec.
Jmt : 10 (120 kph) for 75 secs Cost : 201413($)

Equipment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Component/Type/Location

Engine :Triton T2 [Engine 2] [CT ]
HeatReg.:Smac Corp. [Heat 5]
LifeSup.:Livotto [Life 1] [Head]
Scanner :CyberSys S [Scan. 1] [CT ]
Computer:Krios K5 [Comp. 5] [CBT ]
JumpPort:Mark MJ-I [Jump 6]

Weapons:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Location/Weapon/Ammunition/Slots

[Head] MEDIUM LASER
[RA ] FLAME THROWER (014) [2]
[LA ] FLAME THROWER (014) [2]
[RT ] FLAME THROWER (014) [2]
[LT ] FLAME THROWER (014) [2]
[RA ] CHAIN SAW
[LA ] CHAIN SAW

Armor:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loc/Internal/Armor/Status/Points/mm

[Head] (13) Dullaroy HMAX 021 [031mm]
[RT ] (21) Millenia 034 [068mm]
[CT ] (23) Vicenium 036 [060mm]
[CBT ] (15) Vicenium 018 [030mm]
[LT ] (21) Millenia 034 [068mm]
[RA ] (23) Vicenium 034 [057mm]
[LA ] (23) Vicenium 034 [057mm]
[LowT] (13) Vicenium 036 [060mm]
[RL ] (19) Millenia 034 [068mm]
[LL ] (19) Millenia 034 [068mm]

Armor Index: 5.05 [Total APts/T]
Internal: 190 [APts]
External: 315 [APts] Max:[075mm]
Total Armor: 505 [APts]

JOCK requirements:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Piloting: Medium Titan incl. Jump
Weapons : Energy C.C.
Warfare : Scanner
Skills : Medic Scout

downloadable xchange:

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:36 am

Sleeping_Dragon wrote:btw. whoever modified the assaults over from 1.4 to WS did a great job! It's the lower wieght titans that benefit the most from heat regulator/armor swapping ( a little extra weight goes a lot further)

Iceman was the keeper of the titan database and did all the changes.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 1:57 pm

I'm working on the database again now, now that I have the time. I did what I could during beta testing, but there was just no time for more, the database is big and I'm just one

Plus there was testing, the manual, the campaigns, and some other thing they call a life which I never really understood fully...

Anyways, thanks for the heads up Bblue, I wish you'd been there during beta.
I had to redesign the database twice, which was fun but time consuming. I knew there were heat problems with the changed armor, and was trying to solve them as the designs appeared in my games and problems were detected.
The assaults *had* to be redesigned because of the chassis weight changes. So they ended up being in better shape. There was no time for nitpicking, and so the lower end titans are not fully optimized.

Like you said, I tried to keep the designs as close to the original designer's vision as possible. Hence the Grim Reaper still having the CC weapons

Variety and design options were also factors.

The Fist, Penetrator and now the Crucible have been updated, along with the Grim Reaper and the Duellist (this one was one of the very original VB designs, hence my reluctance in changing it - sometimes, efficiency isn't everything). I'll be looking for more optimizations, and checking this room for more comments.

Thanks!

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:50 pm

Sleeping_Dragon wrote: Titan Name: Crucible Close Combat Medium Titan

[Head] (13) Dullaroy HMAX 021 [031mm]
[RT ] (21) Millenia 034 [068mm]
[CT ] (23) Vicenium 036 [060mm]
[CBT ] (15) Vicenium 018 [030mm]
[LT ] (21) Millenia 034 [068mm]
[RA ] (23) Vicenium 034 [057mm]
[LA ] (23) Vicenium 034 [057mm]
[LowT] (13) Vicenium 036 [060mm]
[RL ] (19) Millenia 034 [068mm]
[LL ] (19) Millenia 034 [068mm]

Is it me or you can still add one more AP to the LOT?

Or go

[Head] (13) Dullaroy HMAX 021 [031mm]
[RT ] (21) Millenia (W) 034 [068mm]
[CT ] (23) Vicenium (W) 037 [062mm]
[CBT ] (15) Vicenium (W) 017 [029mm]
[LT ] (21) Millenia (W) 034 [068mm]
[RA ] (23) Vicenium (W) 034 [057mm]
[LA ] (23) Vicenium (W) 034 [057mm]
[LowT] (13) Vicenium (W) 035 [059mm]
[RL ] (19) Millenia (W) 034 [068mm]
[LL ] (19) Millenia (W) 034 [068mm]

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:37 pm

Thorgrim wrote:Is it me or you can still add one more AP to the LOT?

DOH!, was looking everywhere to to put that last .05ton, must have forgot the obvious place

anyway, I like your armor set up better anyway, offically put me down for thicker CT engine protection please

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:16 pm

Thorgrim wrote:The assaults *had* to be redesigned because of the chassis weight changes. So they ended up being in better shape. There was no time for nitpicking, and so the lower end titans are not fully optimized.

This was the impression I was getting doing my 'mini-refits' and is VERY understandable, it takes a big chunk of time. I'm overjoyed your taking another pass at the lower ends of the database!!! I just finished my heat regulator/armor swapping 'adjustment' for the whole database where these 2 things was practically all I looked at, your welcome to it if you want, but I'm sure if you take components into account there are some better choices.

A suggestion I'd make, make sure NO titan has a heat dissapation rate worse then -1.5C/Sec . If they go to 'hell' terrian, they'll practically melt from moving and a punch or 2. Also watch the head armor, there were a few that were missing a point or 2, the head is NOT the place to save weight. May have to do with changes done to the chassises?

Anyway if you want help of any kind, let me know.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:34 pm

Sleeping_Dragon wrote:DOH!, was looking everywhere to to put that last .05ton, must have forgot the obvious place

anyway, I like your armor set up better anyway, offically put me down for thicker CT engine protection please

Yep, the LOT being the smallest location is where you'll always get to add a pt or 3 if possible at all.

Done.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:09 pm

Sleeping_Dragon wrote: I just finished my heat regulator/armor swapping 'adjustment' for the whole database where these 2 things was practically all I looked at, your welcome to it if you want, but I'm sure if you take components into account there are some better choices.

A suggestion I'd make, make sure NO titan has a heat dissapation rate worse then -1.5C/Sec . If they go to 'hell' terrian, they'll practically melt from moving and a punch or 2. Also watch the head armor, there were a few that were missing a point or 2, the head is NOT the place to save weight. May have to do with changes done to the chassises?

You can send the changes you made to me, in plain text, if you want (and remember).
tosiceman@sapo.pt

I go with -1.6 as min. -1.5 is good for dodging without overheating, but I like having a bigger "overhead" when running - defensive skill also compounds with this, so you can usually get to -1.9 min, which is almost enough to not overheat while jumping.
There are a few below -1.6, but not many, and generally supports that don't overheat too much.
In Core, well, recons are always screwed. I just suggested to Larkin a couple of hours ago to increase the heat dissipation of hr1 and 2 to -1.7 and -1.9 (was going to during beta but forgot

), but can't be sure of the implications.
About head armor, heh, I know, it was on purpose. Weight savings. No point in having your head armor higher than your CT's

I'll take a pass at it again, most are just 1 or 2 pts below max. I see there are 3 tht are 3 below. I'll check.

**** forum, keeps booting me out whenever I try to post anything... upgrade?! Gahh!

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:03 pm

I went back through the recon and 'fixed' the last 2 titans that I had left with worst than -1.50 C/sec by making small changes in the armor. Actually almost all the HR1 recons in my database now have -1.73C/sec, Mmmmmm Millinia. As far as changing the actual numbers on the heat regs, I like the 'spacing' as is, if you improve the lowest ones it sort crimps the spacing somewhere up the list. I think Millinia fixes most of the problems, but if not, I'd suggest of the top of my head maybe increasing all HRs by -.10?

As far as head armor goes, I vaguely remember a discussion, back in the day about it. And there is validity to the head more armored then the CT arguement. BUT I generally play 'no do overs' and if a head pops I'm dead. My jock can live with other missing body parts, even the part covering the engine (if it don't explode). Hehehe Its the first thing I do after choosing a chassis Armor -> Duralloy -> Head -> Full -> see if I can take a mm off without reducing AP, then on to other things

I'll e-mail the database (no assaults, I only moded 1, I think, I'll double check. BUT I didn't plan ahead for this, so I didn't mark which ones I changed! DOH! Almost all the recons, most of the lights, 1/2 the mediums, and a few heavies. So I'll send the whole database and hope you have better orginizational skills then me and can sort out my mess. sorry.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:57 pm

Increasing all regs is not an option IMO. And no, it doesn't crimp the rest, else I wouldn't have suggested it

1 or 2 pts doesn't make *that* much of a difference if you can switch D to V and gain some weight that can be used to improve armor elsewhere. Only a very few cannot take a CLG headshot and breach armor, and those can take an AC12. Most cannot take a TB *anyway*, so the difference is not that big. It's not like it was a decision taken lightly. A big headshot is cause for ejection (if you're playing safe) whether you have 21 or 23 total head armor.

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:11 am

Thorgrim wrote:1 or 2 pts doesn't make *that* much of a difference if you can switch D to V and gain some weight that can be used to improve armor elsewhere.

Thats my point, 1 or 2 points don't make a huge difference on ANY location, so why not pull 1-3 points off 'less important' location(s) and put it on the head?

It's never the CLG that kills you, it's the 2 points from a stray LRM 70secs before the CLG got into range that does

LOL, I guess I'm just paranoid. Anyway, it should only an issue on the lightest titans where head armor can design-wise actually be > CT. I'll keep my Vetrens out of those 'tin cans' and let the rookies take all the chances.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:02 pm

Maybe you just didn't read the average damage allocation table that comes with the guide?

Well, that's not a point for a vet to make IMO. You should know better than to factor that into your calculations. You can plan for one big stray hit, but for a whole battle...

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:46 pm

Thorgrim wrote:In Core, well, recons are always screwed. I just suggested to Larkin a couple of hours ago to increase the heat dissipation of hr1 and 2 to -1.7 and -1.9 (was going to during beta but forgot ), but can't be sure of the implications.

One implication is that h2 with 1.9 is closing the gap to h3 with +1 ton/slot. Not sure if I like this.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:33 pm

Yep, but the gap grows bigger as the quality increases. In terms of gaps it makes some sense. In terms of dissipation increase vs slot usage, notice it doesn't make hr3 any worse, it just makes hr2 a little better

The reason I said I was not sure though, is that with the current revision of the database, many hr2s will become hr1s (there were only 4 hr1s in the database), and many hr3s will become hr2s - there almost weren't any hr2s outside of recons, and no hr1s. I count a max of 6 designs outside of recons affected by this, if they're revised.

Anyways, maybe it's nothing. I just wanted you to know that I didn't pull this out of my hat

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:17 pm

LarkinVB wrote:One implication is that h2 with 1.9 is closing the gap to h3 with +1 ton/slot. Not sure if I like this.

That's the 'crimp' I mentioned, but Iceman is right, it still goes up evenly. Only worry I'd have now is if an increase or -.2C/sec is worth a ton of wieght.

HR3 may become a 'bad' choice. If I wanted to choose a HR3, I'd likely save the ton and the CT slot(and corresponding armor choice) and not worry about the -.2C/Sec and use a HR2.

If I HAD to have the -2.1 of the HR3, I'm running warm, and would probably be better off scrapping up a ton somewhere and using a HR4 with its -.3C/sec jump in disappation rates. Just playing Devil's advocate

It looks like almost all the titans are going to have atleast a -1.73C/sec disappation rate. Is this good enough for 'useful survival' in core? If not, something need to change.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:35 pm

Hmm, hr9 is hardly used too... so are other components. That's the disadvantage of having a wide selection.

Other solutions would be only increasing hr1 to -1.6 , or dropping Core's heat mod a little.

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:44 pm

Is it neccessary that recons can master core ?

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:29 pm

Nope, but it'd be nice if they could at least walk around without overheating

Actually, with the revised database they can, since all recons will have at least -1.73C/sec dissipation. But that's if they walk.