A Clash of Titans, Xhoel (Axis) vs Bitburger (Soviet)

[EwaldvonKleist]

Now I am curious, is it about the maximum possible rout range (block the possible rout spots)?

Or another idea, offer a good rout spot which will be immediately isolated?

Is your WitW game still active?

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Now I am curious, is it about the maximum possible rout range (block the possible rout spots)?

Or another idea, offer a good rout spot which will be immediately isolated?

I take it you have read the manual in detail Yes it is about the max rout range and it also deals with blocking the possible rout spots.

Best case scenario for me would be to rout them and isolate them and get some POWs out of the whole ordeal but I don't know if the situation will allow for that. I doubt that the Southern Front will collapse in a week so I will most likely go for the safer option and just force them to surrender.

Ofc I don't want to get ahead of myself. I have tested the rule and it seems to be working as described but there are many things to consider. Until I have turn 59 in my hand and can see what the situation is like, difficult to say which option I will chose. I am praying to the gods that he doesn't move another Rifle Corps in the city though :/

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Is your WitW game still active?

Yeah the game is still ongoing. We are done with turn 33 but I have not updated the AAR yet as I have been really busy with real life and because nothing of importance happened on the ground during that turn. I did get a beat down by the WA airforce though, they hit all airfields in central Italy and have decimated most recon and tactical bomber groups.

[MattFL]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I think in the Caucasus the Soviet side made a mistake in creating that straight line of units north of the Kuban.

Ya think? [:)]

[MattFL]

ORIGINAL: joelmar
Also the Soviet guys remaining down there are not very strong....

An extremely temporary situation to be sure. Enough there to hold it now and by the time you're ready to attack, it will be against fearful CV.

[joelmar]

ORIGINAL: MattFL

An extremely temporary situation to be sure. Enough there to hold it now and by the time you're ready to attack, it will be against fearful CV.

sorry, I had missed your comment... Expected of course! Exactly why I have a few reinforcements of my own coming down and it won't even show elsewhere! Wintering units has a few advantages! And I have 2 months of winter down there, no blizzard... so...

By the way, the mountains are cleared!

[xhoel]

T59, 30th July- 6th of August 1942
Army Group Finland

The Finnish air force launched successful raids against Soviet airfields in the north during this week, destroying 35 fighters for the loss of 6 fighters and 2 bombers. This is the second raid of this kind to happen in July. The raids are being conducted with the aim of weakening the Leningrad Air Command deployed in the sector and to protect Finnish ground forces from air attacks that have been continuing since the start of the summer.

We have begun rotating Finnish forces to their home theater in order to increase their morale and fighting power.



Positions after Axis moves and attacks. Marked in red are targets that were bombed by Soviet tactical bombers.



Example of a unit that has just been transferred to Finland. Notice the low morale.

[Telemecus]

What ToEs do you keep Finnish coastal brigades as compared to normal Finnish divisions? I guess you might make other distinctions between higher and lower XP or morale too. My reason for asking is that I found the ToE of coastal brigades left them with a lower CV/man than the ToE of Finnish divisions, other things being equal. This is only an impressionistic finding. So given the manpower constraints of Finland I put all coastal brigades on the lowest priority for max Toe whatever their XP/morale.

[xhoel]

AGN

The bridgehead over the Volga held and the Soviets have repositioned their forces in preparation for further attacks. The main goal of the week was to expand the bridgehead to 20 miles deep and 30 miles wide. This goal was partially achieved.

Strong attacks by the 9th Army and the 3rd Panzer Army managed to break the Soviet defenders on the river line but further attacks inland were stopped by determined Soviet resistance. The difficult terrain meant that the Panzer forces lost most of their mobility (MPs) during the river crossings and were not able to launch strong attacks to expand the bridgehead to the east. The Soviets held 4 attacks in the sector and seeing how further attacks would probably fail, the 3rd Panzer Army was ordered on the defensive. Fuel was transported by air to the forward units. The advance will resume next week.

Further to the south, the last Soviet units defending west of the Volga have been pushed back and now the western bank is fully under our control.

Our attack on Kalinin has failed and the attacking units have taken heavy losses in the process. Further attacks are off the table right now but taking the city remains an objective for AGN.

Rail repair is continuing as planned and FBD 2 has reached the town of Maksatikha. All and all not a very good week for AGN. Disappointing is also the fact that the elite GD Mot. Regiment has not changed its TOE to a divisional TOE, something that should have been done since early May.

Positions at the start of the week:



Positions after German moves:



In red, Soviet holds.

[xhoel]

AGC

As part of the planned offensive to trap the Soviet forces located west of the Oka Bridghead, the 4th Army launched a strong attack and captured Ryazan. After that, forces of the 2nd Army and 2nd Panzer Army pushed to the west, routing several Soviet formations in the process. The opening was exploited by the 4th Panzer Army, which after further attacks has taken defensive positions to secure the gains made. 3 Soviet Rifle divisions are trapped, a further 8 are pressed with their backs against the Oka river and 9 Rifle Divisions were routed during the fighting. We hope to keep the momentum going in this sector and encircle the Soviet formations that are being held on the Oka while also continuing the advance north.

To the east, the 1st Tank Army (under Rotmistrovs command) attacked across the river Vad pushing back the defending German regiment. We launched counterattacks, pushing back the enemy forces and retaking the river line.

Positions at the start of the week:



Positions during German moves:




I had a chance to launch a strong deliberate attack here and rout all 3 formations, clearing the position. However I was not sure the attack was going to be successful (and everything was hanging on its success). Also if I had launched the attack I would be short of MPs to secure the gains made. Therefore I did not take the risk and did not launch the attack.

Positions after German moves:

[xhoel]

AGS

AGS has been split in Army Group A and Army Group B. More detail on the way the armies will be split will be given next week.

The pocket in the south held. Soviet forces have pulled back and reestablished new defensive lines. After the destruction of the trapped Soviet forces, elements of the 1st Panzer Army were ordered to push hard to reach the port of Novorossiysk. They have done so, cutting off the Taman peninsula in the process. 1 Rifle Division and 1 Guard Mountain division are trapped in the peninsula. The 17th Army and the rest of the 1st Panzer Army punched through Soviet defensive lines on the river Kuban. Forward elements of the 25th Mot. Division have captured the oilfields of Maikop. 2 Soviet Rifle divisions have been trapped in the sector but they might escape. Some of the Panzer divisions have been resupplied by air. The objective now will be to prevent the Soviet forces defending Krasnodar from accessing the ports and finishing them off before moving east.

Positions at the start of the week:



Positions after Axis moves:





Soviet holds shown in red.

AGS overview:



Crimea

The Fortress of Sevastopol has finally fallen after 2 attacks. This brings an end to the 5 week long siege of the fortress port. The enemy forces (50,000 men and around 600 guns) were evacuated by sea, first in the town of Anapa on the Black Sea coast and after that they evacuated to the outskirts of Novorossiysk. They have only suffered light losses in the process and these units will surely become a thorne on our side. The AA units defending the city have surrendered en masse.

The capture of Sevastopol also brings an end to the Crimean campaign, which lasted 11 weeks (turn 49-turn 59). The 11th Army and the V Fliegerkorps are now free to be redeployed elsewhere, the capture of Sevastopol means that the risk of Soviet naval landings has dropped to 0.

Combat casualties during the siege were very heavy, around 7.000 Germans were KIA, many more died from wounds or were incapacitated.

Fall of Sevastopol:

[xhoel]

Sevastopol Rant

I am really disappointed with the way things went in Sevastopol. I knew from the beginning that the Soviet forces would rout and had made peace with that. However in the last 2 turns the opportunity presented itself to destroy said forces by forcing them to surrender and I felt like I was being rewarded for continuing the fight for the city. However a combination of my mistakes and wrong rules in the manual lead to a situation where all 3 formations escaped without any serious losses. It felt as if a victory was snatched from my hands and the main culprit was myself.

With that being said, I do not like the way routs by sea are conducted. They are unrealistic and it is something that affects both sides (Germans are affected in 1941-42 and Soviets are affected in 1943-45). In this case the Soviet formations should have taken heavy losses considering that this is a massive evacuation by sea, that is being conducted from a heavily damaged port (60%+ damage) in the face of massive enemy pressure on both ground and air. They did not, they routed to safety, teleporting where they needed to be.

I relied heavy on the manual while planning my moves. According to the rules, routed units will displace to the hex containing their HQ or adjecent to it if the HQ is less than 10 hexes away. This was not the case here, the Coastal Army HQ was more than 10 hexes away. In this case, the units would displace to a town less than 24 hexes away. The possible locations shown below fulfilled the criteria: Anapa and Temryuk (even though this one doesn't make sense considering the fact that the Germans hold Kerch).

The rules also state that said routing units will not displace to a hex that has a non isolated enemy units within two hexes. I assumed that was the case and did not take Anapa but put a motorized division 2 hexes away. As I found out, the rule is incorrect and the Soviets displaced to the hex. If I had taken Anapa, the Soviets would have displaced to Temryuk and I could have isolated them (which would have been gamey and not really to my taste).





In red are possible rout locations. Hexes marked in white are hexes that normally would be options to rout to, but because they already had 3 units in them were off the table.

Below is the plan I had in mind when planning to force these units to surrender. Notice that this plan can only work in the case when the German player is already in the Caucasus in a similar position to mine. With this positioning in mind and according to the rules the Soviet forces would have surrendered. This would be no major hit for the Soviets though. My test showed that out of the 50.000+ men only around 15.000 would be lost, all the others would escape. So taking into account the fact that units that rout through sea hexes take too little damage, I though 15.000 is a good enough price to pay and is more realistic than seeing the Soviets magically teleport.

Plan:



Soviet forces rout to Anapa, meaning that the rules from the manual were incorrect:



At the end of the day, I closed the Taman pocket and the routed units displaced adjecent to their HQ in Novorossyisk. They will be a tough opponent in the coming weeks.

So my advice to the players is this:

For Axis players: Try to take Sevastopol as soon as possible or at least get as close to it as possible in 1941. You can try attacks in 1942 but be aware that if the enemy reinforces the port, you will need to commit a lot of resources to take it.

For Soviet players: Do not abandon Sevastopol. It is a very easily defendable position and you have nothing to lose by defending it. You will tie up Axis forces and can always threaten with naval landings in the rear so the enemy will be on their toes constantly. Even if they take the port, your units will live to fight another day.

[xhoel]

Casualties and OOB

Casualties this week were relatively low. The Soviets only suffered 60.000 irrecoverable losses, while Axis forces had 13.500 men KIA. Air losses were high on both sides, 122 Axis to 502 Soviet. Soviet ready OOB sits at 4.664k men. Interesting to not is the high number of holds that the Soviets achieved this week, many of which were against deliberate attacks.

Ground and air losses:





OOB:



Holds:

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

What ToEs do you keep Finnish coastal brigades as compared to normal Finnish divisions? I guess you might make other distinctions between higher and lower XP or morale too. My reason for asking is that I found the ToE of coastal brigades left them with a lower CV/man than the ToE of Finnish divisions, other things being equal. This is only an impressionistic finding. So given the manpower constraints of Finland I put all coastal brigades on the lowest priority for max Toe whatever their XP/morale.

I have only 1 Finnish Brigade, the one shown above and I have them set on 85% Max TOE because I want them to retain their CV. They can hold their own just fine for now. Finnish divisions are set on 80, high morale ones are set to 100.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Congrats for taking Sevastopol!


How do you evaluate the siege of Sevastopol campaign with hindsight (excluding the campaign devoted to taking all Crimea hexagons except Sevastopol)?
Do you think it has been worth it considering opportunity costs?

which would have been gamey and not really to my taste

All is fair in love and war(games).

I have a question regarding the game rules, the port of Temryuk does not allow evacuation of the Soviet Kuban troops, correct?
But I expect it to still provide supply and prevent the Soviet units from being isolated.


You achieved good timing, your attack on the Kerch bottleneck from behind will allow your crimea troops to join the Caucasus offensive the moment they are done on the Crimea.

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Congrats for taking Sevastopol!

Thank you! It was a very tough (and frustrating) battle.

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

How do you evaluate the siege of Sevastopol campaign with hindsight (excluding the campaign devoted to taking all Crimea hexagons except Sevastopol)?
Do you think it has been worth it considering opportunity costs?

That is a difficult question to answer. I didn't expect the siege to take this long, nor did I expect it to be this bloody. Having 3 Corps dedicated to the siege meant that 18 artillery SUs plus around 24+ Pioneer Battalions weren't available for other offensives elsewhere. Not to mention the fact that many good divisions were not available for the offensive on Moscow or in the south because they were fighting in Sevastopol.

Has it been worth it to take Sevastopol? Yes, I think it has. I have given the reasons why I believe it is a good idea for the Germans to get Sevastopol so I won't repeat them again here.

Am I pleased with the way things went? Not really. Like my rant shows, I am disappointed that after a 5 week siege, the garrison completed a near impossible feat and teleported to the Kuban without suffering any additional losses. The Soviets pay very little for defending the city (which is why, I have to shake my head when I see Soviets abandon Sevastopol), unlike historically, where from June-July 1942 the Germans captured 95.000 men and killed 18.000 more in action. Compared to that, the Soviets in my game got a slap on the wrist.

Would I do it again if I was in the same situation? Yes, but I would avoid the mistakes I made so that the Soviets would actually surrender and not rout.

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
I have a question regarding the game rules, the port of Temryuk does not allow evacuation of the Soviet Kuban troops, correct?
But I expect it to still provide supply and prevent the Soviet units from being isolated.

Yes that is correct, Temryuk does not allow evacuation as far as I have seen. It doesn't provide supply either because the Kerch strait is closed, so supply from the sea is impossible. Will see once I get the turn and will let you know.

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist You achieved good timing, your attack on the Kerch bottleneck from behind will allow your crimea troops to join the Caucasus offensive the moment they are done on the Crimea.

Indeed, that will be a nice addition to AGS, I have around 6 divisions there that will join the fight for the Caucasus and Stalingrad.

The elite divisions (4), Cavalry and Motorized (2) and the Panzer Divisions (2) will move north to assist the push on Moscow. I had to think long and hard about whether or not this is the right course of action and concluded that it is. Moscow is my nr.1 priority right now. The sooner the city gets cut off, the faster I can redirect my mobile forces towards Stalingrad. And the clock is ticking for the Germans, we only have 10 good weather turns left.

[Crackaces]

Here is a problem that you have shown. In 2x3 the Soviets voluntary pull troops out of Riga turn 1 and suffer horrendous losses through interdiction.Soviets routing by a sea lane do not take sea lane interception losses. Just the regular losses of displacement. This rewards a situation that should not be rewarded.

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Here is a problem that you have shown. In 2x3 the Soviets voluntary pull troops out of Riga turn 1 and suffer horrendous losses through interdiction.Soviets routing by a sea lane do not take sea lane interception losses. Just the regular losses of displacement. This rewards a situation that should not be rewarded.

I fully agree. It is ridiculous that voluntary evacuation takes more losses than a rout by sea. If anything it should be the other way around.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Sevastopol Rant

I love the way your headlines get right down to the point of the post! [:)]

Having been there and felt the exasperation of things like this I can truly empathise. There are two key points that stand out for me

i) Predictability of the game mechanics. I am not saying there is not a random element to war that is and should be emulated by random number generations. Or even that things can happen that you did not anticipate but with hindsight you can find out why. I do object to the game mechanics being random and indeed contrary to what the manual says they should be.

I know official support has ended for WitE. That does not mean sales are not still happening for WitE though and I do think the developers would be quids in with further sales if they provided some support for updating the manual. Chris21wen has done amazing work in updating the manual themself tm.asp?m=4529371 - and no doubt this will now be another update they can make for us. But even here we can only guess or outline the changes that need to be made. It would help a lot if at least somebody who can access the code could tell us what it is doing exactly so that we can correct the manual.

This is a beast of a game that can take some months or even years to complete. Big, interesting, complicated strategies rely on having some sort of predictability of what will happen if they succeed. It can be soul destroying when the time spent playing, and planning or even testing, beforehand does not come out right.

ii) Losses from routing across the sea I know this has been commented on before - the losses from units being routed across the sea are ridiculously low. We know of examples where units are not routed across the sea after a battle but transported in good order as part of a normal turn and still have losses of many thousands.

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
2x3 the Soviets voluntary pull troops out of Riga turn 1 and suffer horrendous losses through interdiction.

I am guessing the argument will be made that not everything is represented in detail, much has to be abstracted and the lack of losses in one place will be balanced out by too many losses in another place. Well xhoel was doing that other place - and it did not balance. I think it is perfectly acceptable to compensate for one known game mechanic flaw by using another such as isolating routing spots. But accept then it is a matter of taste rather than fair play.

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ORIGINAL: xhoel
For Axis players: Try to take Sevastopol as soon as possible or at least get as close to it as possible in 1941. You can try attacks in 1942 but be aware that if the enemy reinforces the port, you will need to commit a lot of resources to take it.

I wonder if the new best strategy for 1941 should be for the Axis to get Sevastopol in 1941? I also think it would be worth getting anyway in 1942, and if you are going to get it anyway why not when it is easiest. Until now Crimea has been seen as a nice to have but not a priority in 1941. It certainly is not well placed with some of the old suggested rail repair routes in the south. But some of the new planned routes suggested that hug the south coast and use ports to accelerate the extension of the rail repair east are now ideal for a Crimea as a priority 1941 strategy.

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I love the way your headlines get right down to the point of the post! [:)]

No sense in wasting time!

ORIGINAL: Telemecus i) Predictability of the game mechanics. I am not saying there is not a random element to war that is and should be emulated by random number generations. Or even that things can happen that you did not anticipate but with hindsight you can find out why. I do object to the game mechanics being random and indeed contrary to what the manual says they should be.

Fully agree with you here.

ORIGINAL: Telemecus I know official support has ended for WitE. That does not mean sales are not still happening for WitE though and I do think the developers would be quids in with further sales if they provided some support for updating the manual. Chris21wen has done amazing work in updating the manual themself tm.asp?m=4529371 - and no doubt this will now be another update they can make for us. But even here we can only guess or outline the changes that need to be made. It would help a lot if at least somebody who can access the code could tell us what it is doing exactly so that we can correct the manual.

Indeed, Chris has done a very fine job in piecing everything together. We would all be in a tight spot without access to the new manual. I have send him some suggestions about what to change whenever the new version comes out.

ORIGINAL: Telemecus This is a beast of a game that can take some months or even years to complete. Big, interesting, complicated strategies rely on having some sort of predictability of what will happen if they succeed. It can be soul destroying when the time spent playing, and planning or even testing, beforehand does not come out right.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. This game is very very different from other games in many aspects. The fact that most of these games can go on for years should tell you something about the caliber we are talking about. For all that time and effort to go to waste because of a bug or something that is not properly documented it is absolutely soul crushing.

ORIGINAL: Telemecus ii) Losses from routing across the sea I know this has been commented on before - the losses from units being routed across the sea are ridiculously low. We know of examples where units are not routed across the sea after a battle but transported in good order as part of a normal turn and still have losses of many thousands.

This should be changed to reflect interdiction of naval transports coming in and out. I would also like to see a cap set on ports about how many units they can move around depending on the port size and unit size, like there is in WitW. In other words a level 1 port should not be able to evacuate 50.000 men in a week because the port doesn't have the means to load all the men and equipment in such short notice.

ORIGINAL: Telemecus I wonder if the new best strategy for 1941 should be for the Axis to get Sevastopol in 1941? I also think it would be worth getting anyway in 1942, and if you are going to get it anyway why not when it is easiest. Until now Crimea has been seen as a nice to have but not a priority in 1941. It certainly is not well placed with some of the old suggested rail repair routes in the south. But some of the new planned routes suggested that hug the south coast and use ports to accelerate the extension of the rail repair east are now ideal for a Crimea as a priority 1941 strategy.

I think that would be a good goal. 1941 is really the easiest time to get the city. Like my AAR has shown, a Guard Rifle Corps defending Sevastopol is a force to be reckoned with. Much better to take it before the Soviets have had time to tailor their defense.

I wouldn't say that Crimea should become a priority, but it does help a lot if you push hard in that sector. There are many positives to that.

What rail routes do you have in mind? Ports do not help though, since as long as Sevastopol is active none of the ports in the Crimea can be used for transport or supply.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: xhoel
What rail routes do you have in mind? Ports do not help though, since as long as Sevastopol is active none of the ports in the Crimea can be used for transport or supply.

Was thinking mainly of Ochakow but secondarily of Odessa - means the rail route along the coast to Nikolaev is best, not the next most northernly one I used to use. Going through Nikolaev during the middle of the clear weather in 1941 will (probably) mean you have OK supply to Crimea (after adding on some auto rail repair from Nikolave to it), my old route used to leave units in Crimea isolated and out of supply come blizzard.