ASW: Will anything be done in AE to reduce the lethality of Japanese naval search and ASW AC?

[el cid again]

The best simulation requires honesty. And honesty is best modeled by changing the data entered
in the game.

It is wrong to seek a general change "to reduce the effectiveness" of ASW for one side or the
other generally. The war was too general and involved too many different systems and leaders
for that to be an honest guiding principle. Besides, in the game, the "leaders" at the top
are supposed to be the players - not code. You deprive players of control to seek to give
control to code. PLAYERS should decide how many assets, of what kind, are allocated, and when,
and where, to what mission?

Japanese ASW is a complicated subject. Indeed all ASW campaigns are complicated in their nature.
Truly effective ASW requires combined efforts by aircraft, ships and sometimes also submarines.
Japan was not as good at this as the US was generally. Yet they knew how. Study the fate of USS
Wahoo. A submarine whose commander actually broke US law and international law - offending some
of its own officers who refused to go back to sea with her captain - she earned the ire of
Japanese commanders. They systematically set out to sink her, properly applied all available
assets, air and sea, and did so. You really should not prevent players from doing that when and if
they want to. It would be dishonest and ahistorical.

[miv792]

ORIGINAL: racndoc
But all the entrances to the SRA through the Malay Barrier were completely closed by IJN and IJA aircraft.

Lol. How can you make mistakes and then criticize the game. In shallow water, of course, your submarines will die in such numbers in the Strait where everything is controlled. You didn't think to send through other places.

[USSAmerica]

Holy thread necromancy, Batman! 11 years old? [:D]

[BillBrown]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

Holy thread necromancy, Batman! 11 years old? [:D]

+1

[Chickenboy]

[8|]

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

[8|]

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Splinterhead



But, as I said, even if everybody agreed that my idea was the best idea ever, it's to late to do anything about it, but the numbers of Japanese aircraft used on ASW by players (including me) is somewhat gamey.

Except in the home islands, almost all my air ASW is done by Lillys and especially the dive bomber versions. Of course search planes and some IJN planes may get some hits from time to time. My point is that every single air crew is trained at least to level 70 on naval attack. They don't get deployed until that is the case. I don't see anything gamey about having aircraft like that sprinkled around that are competent to do both jobs. The number of aircraft used isn't a question, it's how many aircrews are proficient. In both the IJA and IJN I try to train as many (save fighter pilots, unless they fly Rufes or Rexes) as I possibly can. But this game is mainly about sinking ships and that skill comes first, then it's handy if they can hunt subs, too.

[RangerJoe]

All that you have to do is to shoot down all of the Japanese planes, bomb all of their air bases so they are unusable, and sink all of the escorts.

[scout1]

The Japanese face so many disadvantages as in real life …. and both players have hindsight that their real life counterparts did not …. Game should provide options which could have been done even though we're for one reason or another ….. Having said that, as the Japanese I skip PH on Dec 7th and go after Manilla instead to lay waste to the Yankee pigboats …..

[geofflambert]

First of all, you mention only IJN planes. You don't have time to be training IJN crews to do ASW properly. Eventually your IJN search plane crews will get so-so at it. IJN crews have way too many things to train on before they get around to ASW. IJN surface ASW is completely worthless except it can distract subs so what they're escorting can get by. You need to train a bunch of IJA bomber crews to do ASW as well as naval attack. Ann, Mary and Lilly are the best for doing that job. In my current PBM I'm in January '44 and I'm including the kills I'm told I have. 90% of those at least were done by IJA planes. When they do get hits that aren't kills they do damage, causing those subs to spend a lot of time going back to Pearl and getting repaired. It's real important to do air ASW and to do it right. Get those guys trained to level 70 in ASW skills.



Edit: I was responding to an old post by Cmdrcain from 2008

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Cmdrcain

I'm scratching my head here since in my game vsanother, My planes (I'm Japan) don't hit subs much.

plenty of sighting reports and such, but I'm not seeing the complained effects otherwise my opponents subs in kwajalen
area would all be snuffed out by now.

Kates, Vals, Nells, Bettys, Float planes, etc only occasionally may get a hit, during many turns, not in any way every turn, might go through 10-15 turns before see a reported hit and I always consider it "reported" and that doesn't necessary mean actually hit...

If it is tweaked for AE, odds are that then using planes on ASW be pretty worthless if even harder!

The main function it seems for planes on ASW is to spot subs allowing nearby ASW ships to be moved in..
and even then surface ASW aren't all that great
hitting subs either.

So i really don't get this thread..

Here's what I was reacting to

[RangerJoe]

I have had IJN subchasers on ASW patrol sink a US sub in early 1942. The ASW patrol was outside Pescadores on patrol with "Coastal" check so shallow water only. There was air ASW/Search from Formosa so there was detection. Another sub or two was damaged and then sunk in a nearby port. One reason for leaving a base in Allied for the AI to retreat subs to. [:'(]

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: Cmdrcain

I'm scratching my head here since in my game vsanother, My planes (I'm Japan) don't hit subs much.

plenty of sighting reports and such, but I'm not seeing the complained effects otherwise my opponents subs in kwajalen
area would all be snuffed out by now.

Kates, Vals, Nells, Bettys, Float planes, etc only occasionally may get a hit, during many turns, not in any way every turn, might go through 10-15 turns before see a reported hit and I always consider it "reported" and that doesn't necessary mean actually hit...

If it is tweaked for AE, odds are that then using planes on ASW be pretty worthless if even harder!

The main function it seems for planes on ASW is to spot subs allowing nearby ASW ships to be moved in..
and even then surface ASW aren't all that great
hitting subs either.

So i really don't get this thread..

Here's what I was reacting to

Remember, this thread was created 11 years ago, before AE was released. It was a speculation thread, in which we were wondering how the devs would handle ASW in the much-anticipated new release. So when somebody is talking about "my game", they mean vanilla WitP, which (among many other differences) did not have specialized pilot skills.

[geofflambert]

My opponent keeps his subs out of shallow water for the most part. [:(]

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

My opponent keeps his subs out of shallow water for the most part. [:(]

A wise opponent. [;)]

[RangerJoe]

Once the Japanese get ASW forces with the latest DC and other toys, they can kill in open water. Just have enough air search for a good detection rating.

[rustysi]

IJN crews have way too many things to train on before they get around to ASW.

Ignore IJN ASW training at your own peril.

[geofflambert]

I'll go along with that, as soon as they are assigned to carrier squadrons or somewhere else on the front line, they begin to train for ASW. Before you get there you have to be at 70 skill level in naval bombing and naval search and if you are in a torpedo bomber squadron, torpedo attack. Usually ASW training begins after they've been sent forward and time permits. Most of the time I know where his subs are and he doesn't know where my carriers are, so it works out.

[Barb]

My Allied opponent still keeps his subs in shallow waters - and they do take a pounding once I can concentrate my ASW assets on them

[pontiouspilot]

I'm in July '43 in 1st serious game as Japan...I have concentrated on ASW: many planes assigned since Jan'42...many crews in high 70s for ASW...they even sank several subs; assign the crappy depth charges to shallow water, create 4 boat ASW TFs to chase down subs, stay on top of upgrades. In my game opponent is German and insists on "wolf-packs", and he aggressively enters mined ports....according to intell (some FOW) I have sank 45-46 allied subs. (Dirk if you are listening the wolf-pack doesn't work in this game except for minelaying!!!!)