Coastal Artillery Question

[sPzAbt653]

It is being worked on, it may be fixed. If one of you guys familiar with this can give me a way to test it, I will do so.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
If one of you guys familiar with this can give me a way to test it, I will do so.

I think it is pretty easy to replicate...I just set up a coastal battery with 4 122mm guns in a fortified dense urban hex. I sent a destroyer against it. The coastal battery gets off some shots before the destroyer can fire back (due to range), but the first time the destroyer fires after coming within range, the coastal battery evaporates...every time.

I tried a few things:
1) I added a fixed artillery secondary icon...no change;
2) In addition to the fortified hex, I tried to put the coastal battery in a fortified or at least entrenched deployment. Oddly, the default deployment for (static) coastal guns is "Mobile", and the only other choices were ""Local Reserve" and "Tactical Reserve".

[sPzAbt653]

Ok but I don't want to spend time setting stuff up. Somebody give me a scenario that is set up for it followed by step by step instructions on how to get what you see as being wrong, or provide a test scenario also with instructions.

{not being a dick ... I can do a lot but I can't do everything!]

[Cabido]

I have posted a modified scenario here, which can be used for tests on this:
fb.asp?m=4592104

[sPzAbt653]

Again, I'm not being a dick, but I've been a beta tester for eight years so I might be a little 'to the point'. Give me a scenario and a 'how to' to reproduce what you are seeing. I shouldn't be expected to figure all of this out when you guys already know it. I'm saying that it may be fixed already and I will find out if you tell me how. Otherwise, wait for the next patch and do it yourself.

[Cabido]

I have given you the scenario and the instruction is there for how to reproduce it. Want me to tell you how to press the mouse button? I'm not being a dick.

[Shadrach]

It's easy to reproduce using the Malta 42_Altered scenario provided by Cabido. Just move one of the Axis naval units close to the coast.

But I did found that for some reason the game does not trigger interdiction on every try... I tried a new game and suddenly there was no interdiction at all first turn.
When it does trigger, it destroys the coastal guns on first round every time.

But why do the results state the guns first evaporate, and then they defend?

[sPzAbt653]

M. You gave me a link to a thread, and that thread had a few other links, so it was going to make me read a whole thread and try and figure out what to do. Thanks though!

[sPzAbt653]

It's easy to reproduce using the Malta 42_Altered scenario provided by Cabido.

Ok so I didn't specify - 'Not an Altered Scenario'. I need a standard scenario that shipped with the game.

[Cabido]

I gave you a link to a specific post on the thread. All you need is in the post.

The malta scenario is shipped with the game an you can do the test with the original scenario. Playing it I have noticed this bug in the first turn of the game. I have only stacked up all coastal guns inside the fortified line hexes to make it easier to test and dimension the effect.

[Lobster]

With .30 works better. With .21 it's a joke.

[sPzAbt653]

There you go, it's that easy. Thanks Jack!

[Lobster]

I don't know how accurate it is. From some of the stuff I've read it's fairly difficult for either side to get a hit. More of a deterrent to keep troop ships away maybe? And when ships start lobbing large shells they tend to throw up masses of dust that make it hard to even see the target.

[Zovs]

So when will .30 be ready?

Just adding coastal arty to my WIE scenario and fine tuning the naval attrition divider.

Now if someone could answer my mud scalar question I’ll set that appropriately.

[rmeckman]

I'm new to this forum but have a possible explanation for the frequent evaporation of coastal batteries when they fire on ships. I came across the problem while attempting to modify the Weserubung scenario to use the new naval rules. When ships come within range of a coastal fortress, the fortress guns fire on the ships using the naval combat procedure, just as one expects. However, the ships' counterbattery fire on the fortress is also resolved using the naval combat procedure rather than the land bombardment rules. Each piece of equipment in the fort is treated as a ship in the counterbattery combat resolution.

As an example, shown below are some lines from the TOAW log file after the German cruiser Königsberg comes within range of a Norwegian coastal fortress. The fortress has already fired, and the Königsberg has been allocated counterbattery shots on the fortress using the naval formula. One of those shots is targeted at a Norwegian infantry squad within the fortress, and here are the results in the log:

[font="Arial"]
FleetCombat: Target Unit Leröy Fort.
FleetCombat: Target Equipment NO Landvern Squad.
FleetCombat: Chance shock hit rnd(1,75)*100>rnd(1,65)*100.
FleetCombat: Weather Modifiers Total = 0.700000 Source(13) = 0.330000, Target(11) = 0.660000.
FleetCombat: Chance guns hit range 5.000000.
FleetCombat: Chance guns hit .86(odds)*.70(weather).
FleetCombat: Chance guns hit 60>rnd(1,100).
FleetCombat: Damage 1 hit 42>rnd(1,2).
Combat : NO Landvern Squad destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
FleetCombat: Penetration hit rnd(1,42/2)>rnd(1,0).
FleetCombat: Penetration 2 hit 3 = rnd(1,4)*rnd(1,50)/21.
FleetCombat: Critical chance 1
Combat : NO Landvern Squad destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : NO Landvern Squad destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : NO Landvern Squad destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
[/font]

The first hit check is made assuming the squad is a ship with an agility of 65. The second hit check is resolved normally using range, weather, and the Königsberg's accuracy. Next, the 1% damage check is performed assuming the squad has a durability in the 20s. This 1% damage immediately "sinks" the squad. Penetration is computed assuming an armor rating of zero, which causes 3% more damage; that damage is assessed by eliminating three more squads. All other equipment in the fortress is treated the same way as this squad.

In essence, the ships' counterbattery fire treats the fortress equipment as a flotilla of easily sinkable ships. In most scenarios, the naval rules generate more than enough shots in one counterbattery firing round to "sink" all the equipment in the fortress and cause it to evaporate.

[Shadrach]

In essence, the ships' counterbattery fire treats the fortress equipment as a flotilla of easily sinkable ships. In most scenarios, the naval rules generate more than enough shots in one counterbattery firing round to "sink" all the equipment in the fortress and cause it to evaporate.

Now that's what I call proper detective work and fact-finding!

[Lobster]

So making any equipment a virtual ship is something that happens because the unit has a coastal artillery icon?

[sPzAbt653]

the naval rules generate more than enough shots in one counterbattery firing round to "sink" all the equipment in the fortress and cause it to evaporate.

I am not the naval guy, but isn't this why there is a Naval Attrition Divider [so that Shots Fired Per Round can be scaled to the Game Scale] ?

[VHauser]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I am not the naval guy, but isn't this why there is a Naval Attrition Divider [so that Shots Fired Per Round can be scaled to the Game Scale] ?

From what I've determined, the NAD affects the vulnerability of naval units but not the number of shots fired.

I've tried lowering the NAD in Europa 1947, but this just results in naval units being massacred by air units and other naval units. Sure, coastal artillery will also join the massacre, but even the survival of minimal naval units means the destruction of the coastal artillery.

Alas, lowering the NAD doesn't solve the problem.

[VHauser]

Here is a possible work around.
Use the RR-artillery symbol, but only deploy in hexes that don't have rail lines (put a rail in the hex, then add the "coastal artillery", then erase the rail in the hex). This solves the 0-movement problem (meaning that such "coastal artillery" should not be able to retreat), but has its own share of side effects.

Indeed, the 0-movement problem is the biggest issue to deal with regarding any coastal artillery work around. In other words, permanently emplaced artillery must have 0 movement and not be able to retreat.