PT boat sqd raids Tassafronga and is refueld by sub at sea!?

[PzB74]

In one of my pbem games I wanted to see whether my PT boats could be used for offensive operations since their usual task of baby sitting bases wasn't really required for the moment.

Sent them out towards Lunga where Jap msw's work double shifts to clear away the mines I'm constantly laying out. After recent coast watcher reports I diverted them to Tassafronga and they engaged:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 09/24/42

Weather: Thunderstorms

Sub attack near Tassafaronga at 37,39

Japanese Ships
MSW Wa 1

Allied Ships
SS Drum


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Tassafaronga at 37,39

Allied Ships
SS Grayback


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Tassafaronga at 37,39

Japanese Ships
MSW Wa 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
MSW Wa 2

Allied Ships
PT 37
PT 38
PT 39
PT 40
PT 46
PT 48
PT 45
PT 60
PT 61


----------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see I also had a sub in this area, something which proved handy after the engagement. The PT boats were almost down bingo fuel, and the return trip could have become difficult. (Got a replenishment tanker out of enemy air range.)

So I pressed the "replenish TF at sea" button, and voila - the PT sqd had their empty tanks filled up by the sub.

This seems to be a somewhat impossible achievement?

Such "milk cow" operations from subs should perhaps be more restricted!
Smaller vessels wouldn't normally have the equippment aboard to safely refuel from none specialized replenishment vessels either!? Especially not during a thunderstorm.

Comments?

[Drex]

I agree, only a few subs should have this capability if at all. I know the Germans had milchcows but did the allies or Japanese?

[DJAndrews]

I agree with you about the realism, but have always considered this as a "work-around" for the difficulty in setting up fueling facilities for PTs when every supply ship that unloads at a port tops up its fuel tanks (whether it is low on fuel or not). Until and unless we are given the option of not refueling, I think the replenish at sea option (from any source) is needed for PTs, MSWs, PCs and SCs. I even keep an empty transport disbanded at PT bases as the only practical way of keeping PTs in supply on a continuing basis.

[PzB74]

I understand the problem - and hope they find a fix for it in WitP which they can later implement in UV.

As far as I can remember PT boats got petrol engines. So refueling from a ship using diesel oil as fuel wouldn't work.

Will past in some info about PT boats in generel as well, notice that some were equipped with depth charges as well... Not seen any of those in UV!

The american PT boats of World War II were built mostly of plywood. However, some steel armor plates did exist around the bridge and gun turrets. The hulls of these boats were light and fragile, but this type of construction was necessary to allow the boats to attain their great speed. The power was supplied by 3 Packard V-12 supercharged engines with a total horsepower of 4050. The initial design came from UK, but US did build by license, also alter some."
"These men possesed great skills and courage as the fragile boat was in grave danger if her target was not immediately destroyed. A smoke screen generator on the stern afforded some protection, allowing the boats to maneuver without becoming targets themself."

"The PT boat's worst enemy was the airplane. Defense against planes was available from the sets of twin 50-caliber machine guns, the rapid firing 20 MM Orlikon cannon on the stern, and the extreme maneuverability of the boat. The torpedoes were used against surface ships. They were aimed by pointing the boat in the direction the torpedo was to be fired. Many PT boats also carried depth charges for anti-submarine warfare.

[mogami]

Hi, The Japanese captured a few PT's in PI. They built copies but they left off the torpedo tubes but kept the DC. From what I can gather they built between 130-200 of these boats. They were used as coastal patrol/ASW/escorts

[Veer]

Well, as far as German subs go, all subs could refuel and transfer torps from other subs. A difficult and risky business, but all subs had the capability.

Not sure about PT boats, I guess they could. But such refueling takes a LONG time, and should take up the whole turn...

On the other hand, If the subs had deisel, and the PTs petrol it's going to be plain impossible.

[Tristanjohn]

"The PT boat's worst enemy was the airplane. Defense against planes was available from the sets of twin 50-caliber machine guns, the rapid firing 20 MM Orlikon cannon on the stern, and the extreme maneuverability of the boat. The torpedoes were used against surface ships. They were aimed by pointing the boat in the direction the torpedo was to be fired. Many PT boats also carried depth charges for anti-submarine warfare.

Probably true re enemy attacks from the air, which we also do not see (well, I've never seen a Japanese plane bother to either bomb or strafe a PT). The lack of depth charges is also an oversight. Finally, throw in a PTs lack of transport ability (PTs were used occasionally to ferry squads, scouts here and there up and down coasts).

This brings up two more important points: 1) loading routines are ca-ca and 2) players need the ability to break down land units into their component squads/weapons/support for purposes of loading.

In this manner players could more intelligently use these assets by loading exactly what they wish to load. At present it's hit and miss in port and quite idiotic at times. This may or may not entail much work on the part of Grigsby, but even if it did the resultant change to the model would amount to a huge improvement in the overall simulation and ought to be addressed ASAP.

The argument against this might be that at UV's scale no such minutiae are called for, but that doesn't wash. No matter the scale of a simulation a player requires sufficient means to manage his assets intelligently. At present this is not always the case with the system.

[Veer]

Probably true re enemy attacks from the air, which we also do not see (well, I've never seen a Japanese plane bother to either bomb or strafe a PT). The lack of depth charges is also an oversight. Finally, throw in a PTs lack of transport ability (PTs were used occasionally to ferry squads, scouts here and there up and down coasts).

This brings up two more important points: 1) loading routines are ca-ca and 2) players need the ability to break down land units into their component squads/weapons/support for purposes of loading.

In this manner players could more intelligently use these assets by loading exactly what they wish to load. At present it's hit and miss in port and quite idiotic at times. This may or may not entail much work on the part of Grigsby, but even if it did the resultant change to the model would amount to a huge improvement in the overall simulation and ought to be addressed ASAP.

The argument against this might be that at UV's scale no such minutiae are called for, but that doesn't wash. No matter the scale of a simulation a player requires sufficient means to manage his assets intelligently. At present this is not always the case with the system.

Well, for what its worth - I can manage my land forces quite intelligently with the model as it stands currently. Given the current land combat routines I have no need for individual control over squads. Maybe if it was changed, then. Concurrently, if a mod with PT boats having a transport cap of 1-2 is released I might or might not install it. Dunno if i'll ever use the feature though.

PS: I believe somewhere the load routines are stated. AFAIK Squads are loaded first, followed by Engs, Guns and finally support. But I could be wrong.

[Tristanjohn]

Well, for what its worth - I can manage my land forces quite intelligently with the model as it stands currently. Given the current land combat routines I have no need for individual control over squads. Maybe if it was changed, then. Concurrently, if a mod with PT boats having a transport cap of 1-2 is released I might or might not install it. Dunno if i'll ever use the feature though.

PS: I believe somewhere the load routines are stated. AFAIK Squads are loaded first, followed by Engs, Guns and finally support. But I could be wrong.

Land combat certainly does need overhaul. Someone broached this recently with regard to Japanese attacks early in the PI as an example of how the 2:1 system we curently have does not stand a chance to simulate history--others could cited or imagined easily.

I understand you to say you can manage loading intelligently at present. Well, this is one of those cases where "intelligent" must be assumed a relative term, then. So let me rephrase my stance: if the loading routines were spiffed up players might well manage loading more intelligently now than before, have more flexibility in this area.

You must have run into situations where not enough transports were available to load everything you wanted and what was loaded is not exactly what you would have preferred to load. This happens to me often, especially with regard to support.

I can't imagine a good argument against this proposal. Perhaps you'd suggest one.