Interdiction

[tyronec]

Am playing a couple of Market Games, from either side, and the Interdiction seems heavy.

Did a quick test, Allies setting all aircraft to Interdiction on T1 and Axis moving their available units around at full speed, no significant combats.

Interdiction occurs for every movement and every combat round.
There are no air losses.
Axis casualties listed below, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of their total on map combat value.
Quite a few units were wiped out.

Am thinking maybe it worked differently when this scenario was designed ?

[sPzAbt653]

Which scenario is that?

[tyronec]

Market Garden 44

[Hellen_slith]

Here is a thread about interdiction:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4637901

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Market Garden 44

Ok thanks. Are you playing with New Turn Order rules? Try turning them OFF, because I am seeing a big difference here.

[tyronec]

Playing with New Turn Order 'On'.

So are you saying that some scenarios should be played with New Turn Order 'Off' ?

I don't think you can change this part way through a game ?

[sPzAbt653]

All scenarios should be played with New Turn Order Rules OFF unless otherwise stated in the scenario briefing. Generally speaking it is not a good idea to play scenarios with rules that they were not designed for/with. That said, if you are experienced enough to think that NTOR may benefit a scenario [or any 'new' rule for that matter], then you can try it out to see how it goes. I think the only 'new' rule that doesn't affect anything else and shouldn't need to be tested is the New Bridge Rule.

You can switch the NTOR OFF during the game, but it won't take affect until the next turn.

[sPzAbt653]

Playing with New Turn Order 'On'.

This scenario works much better with NTOR = OFF. With IV, you can turn it off before you start because there is an Options Menu in the Start New Game screen.

Thanks for posting about this.

[tyronec]

Thanks for the responses.

I'm new to this game, is there any easy way to know what options are best used with each scenario ?

[Hellen_slith]

Sometimes, the scene designer will have suggested or required options in the documentation and / or in the scenario overview. So, like FitE has a document briefing, with things like no air or sea interdiction allowed.

One of the options to keep "OFF" I think, is the one that can allow a player to get two turns in a row. Not sure which one that is (I think it s "variable initiative" .. that one should stay off.) "High Supply" is one that is sometimes noted as needing to be on or off depending on in scenario notes.

Those are the ones I can think of.

[sPzAbt653]

I'm new to this game, is there any easy way to know what options are best used with each scenario ?

I need to do a lot of typing to answer that correctly, so until I have time to do so I will give a short answer. Any rule with 'new' in it is a hint that it hasn't been around since the beginning. Therefore something like 'Fog of War' should be of no concern, while on the other hand 'New Supply Rules' should give you cause to ask 'when was it new and was the scenario I am playing designed with it ON or OFF?'

Look in the Scenario Briefing to see if there are any recommendations, but unfortunately herding the scenario design cats is difficult and sometimes there is no mention of some important stuff. If the Briefing leaves you wondering, ask here. Also unfortunate for you new guys - there are differing opinions on whether or not it is okay to use ome of these Options all the time, and without experience it is sometimes easy to get steered the wrong way.

[tyronec]

This scenario works much better with NTOR = OFF.

Just looking at this, another option might be to play without Interdiction.

Any thoughts from other players as to which makes for a better game ?

[cathar1244]

Did a quick test, Allies setting all aircraft to Interdiction on T1 and Axis moving their available units around at full speed, no significant combats.

Looking at the 2006 version of this scenario, two things stand out in regard to air-ground interaction.

1. The Allies have a lot of aircraft, over 600 I estimate, that fly in groups of sixty. That is a lot of firepower.

2. The order of battle depicts the Germans at battalion and company level. German AA battalions are shown as integral units and seem to have no assets distributed among the tank battalions etc. This means that when a German non-AA unit moves and is subjected to an interdiction strike, it is using the AA power that comes from machine guns, etc. -- not much to strike back with.

Been a long time since I read much about that campaign, but I don't recall the Germans being subjected to air strikes all over the place ... perhaps someone here has better recall on that point.

So: On the face of it, Allied air seems too strong considering game mechanics and the distribution of German AA equipment.

Easy to write about, less easy to fix. Options might be to lessen the numbers of Allied aircraft, or modifying the equipment characteristics of the aircraft in the scenario to have a weaker 'bite'.

Cheers

[sPzAbt653]

I don't recall the Germans being subjected to air strikes all over the place

I also looked at the scenario and agree with your assessment. As I recall, the WAllies kept aircraft out of the area so as to avoid conflicts with the planes dropping supplies and reinforcements. The scenario is an original one from 1998, and the Air Units are all generic, so I would assume that the scenario designer didn't have access to the air data. So tyronec's conclusion of not playing with Interdiction seems good.

But first, of course, don't play with NTOR = ON.

[Hellen_slith]

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Any thoughts from other players as to which makes for a better game ?

In general, I am of the mind that interdiction has more of a debilitating effect in the smaller scenarios (like this one) and I have found that it is somewhat of a nuisance (as you probably saw in your test runs, because it hinders movement, which I think was not intended to be so debilitating by the game designers.)

I think it is best to use house rules to limit interdiction to, say, only one air unit may be set to interdiction, or some percentage of air units.

It is unfortunate that it is not working as intended (or perhaps, working TOO well in the smaller scenes) so I usually just stick with only combat support or air superiority as far as the air game is concerned.

My experience has been that air units are better used for superiority and / or combat support.

YMMV!

~H~

[Zovs]

The way that interdiction used to work (circa Cow) was that it only attacked units that moved, if at the end of the turn there was no targets left interdiction would attack targets of opportunity, like HQs, Arty etc.

The way it works now is that when you end your round all your units are subject to interdiction attacks. I don't think that this is correct.

If you have played any board war games the way interdiction works is to target moving units (only).

It used to be killer on units that were embarked, especially on Rail.

[Hellen_slith]

ORIGINAL: Zovs

The way that interdiction used to work (circa Cow) was that it only attacked units that moved

but now, if the interdiction is strong enough and the scenario small enough, that a player might face constant interdiction strikes against units trying to move, and that becomes a real drag fast if you have to click through dozens of those just to move some units.

That's the problem with Market Garden, I've found. It just isn't fair.

[Zovs]

Try El Alamein, it's a nightmare as the Germans I counted over 100 air interdiction attacks on one turn.

[Hellen_slith]

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Try El Alamein, it's a nightmare as the Germans I counted over 100 air interdiction attacks on one turn.

Ugh!! I would be chewing carpet over that, I like to play to have fun, not click through interdictions.

I really wish the game designers could temper that, I mean, I understand the concept of interdiction, and it should be in the game one way or another, but not the way it works in some of the scenes. It is just irritating as hell clicking through all that.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: Zovs

The way that interdiction used to work (circa Cow) was that it only attacked units that moved, if at the end of the turn there was no targets left interdiction would attack targets of opportunity, like HQs, Arty etc.

The way it works now is that when you end your round all your units are subject to interdiction attacks. I don't think that this is correct.

If you have played any board war games the way interdiction works is to target moving units (only).

It used to be killer on units that were embarked, especially on Rail.

A scenario designer can temper interdiction somewhat by not having airbases on transportation lines. There would still remain the problem of the transportation lines going through urban hexes. But those are the most popular places for interdiction to hit moving units.