BrianG v Bitburg (open for all)

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Surprised this game is still going on....as that encirclement should be pretty much game set match...esp when combined with the situation in other sections of the line.

You have a tendency to exaggerate a lot. The Leningrad operation is a major hit but it is not the end of the world. There are players who keep playing and don't give up so easily and Bitburger is one of them. He has been in worse situations and taken the game till the end.

I for one am glad the game is ongoing. Looking forward to future updates!

[joelmar]

ORIGINAL: xhoel

The Leningrad operation is a major hit but it is not the end of the world.

I agree.

[chaos45]

The reason I have my opinions on things is experience esp when a couple years ago they reduced the soviets replacements rate. It made it extremely hard for the soviet player to recover quickly enough to try and push the Germans back by anything near historical rate...this was also coupled with changes to the National morale of both sides that tipped the late game scale even more in favor of the Axis. So it means that if you get trashed to badly as the soviets in the early game you can keep playing until 45 if you want but you already lost...the only thing you can hope for is the Axis to make a huge mistake---as attrition and combat losses were also re-balanced more in favor of axis during those patches.

Just based on the recon avail to the Germans here you talking 50+ soviet divisions lost and that doesn't even include the fort units manpower losses which will be at least 25-50% manned each. Plus the extra attrition/retreat losses from all the airbases and HQs....this is a massive loss of soviet manpower and trained combat units he wont have in winter. Basically is a double win for the Germans as it will allow them to make more ground due to lack of soviet units...and limit the soviets winter offensive due to lack of trained units. This game has a tendency to compound on itself where a big or early win at a certain point compounds into a game winning edge very easily--esp in the 1941 game play.

With this encirclement attrition will be in the Axis favor for quite some time. The soviet player made a big mistake hanging on to Leningrad as long as he did and hes going to pay for it basically.

Also remember Leningrad/Moscow axis is quickest way to berlin so the more ground the Axis hold here the longer it takes for the soviets to ever make it to Germany even if they stay in the game---and as a double advantage this ground is also the easiest for the Axis to defend manpower wise due to terrain bonuses.

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

The reason I have my opinions on things is experience esp when a couple years ago they reduced the soviets replacements rate. It made it extremely hard for the soviet player to recover quickly enough to try and push the Germans back by anything near historical rate...this was also coupled with changes to the National morale of both sides that tipped the late game scale even more in favor of the Axis. So it means that if you get trashed to badly as the soviets in the early game you can keep playing until 45 if you want but you already lost...the only thing you can hope for is the Axis to make a huge mistake---as attrition and combat losses were also re-balanced more in favor of axis during those patches.

Just based on the recon avail to the Germans here you talking 50+ soviet divisions lost and that doesn't even include the fort units manpower losses which will be at least 25-50% manned each. Plus the extra attrition/retreat losses from all the airbases and HQs....this is a massive loss of soviet manpower and trained combat units he wont have in winter. Basically is a double win for the Germans as it will allow them to make more ground due to lack of soviet units...and limit the soviets winter offensive due to lack of trained units. This game has a tendency to compound on itself where a big or early win at a certain point compounds into a game winning edge very easily--esp in the 1941 game play.

With this encirclement attrition will be in the Axis favor for quite some time. The soviet player made a big mistake hanging on to Leningrad as long as he did and hes going to pay for it basically.

Also remember Leningrad/Moscow axis is quickest way to berlin so the more ground the Axis hold here the longer it takes for the soviets to ever make it to Germany even if they stay in the game---and as a double advantage this ground is also the easiest for the Axis to defend manpower wise due to terrain bonuses.

No one is prohibiting you from having your opinions, in fact you are very vocal and like to express them whenever you have a chance even if it is not the right place to do so. Everyone on the forums knows where you stand on the balance issue, we got the message after you posted about it 1.000 times in every possible thread.

I strongly disagree with what you say but I will defend your right to express you opinion. But with this aggressive technique of posting about game balance in every possible thread you aren't winning anyone over to your side and as an experienced player you should know that a AAR is not the right place to discuss or complain about it.

Open a new thread if you want to talk about balance or whatever other issues you have with the game!

[joelmar]

Anyway, I think the issue here is not game balance, but the Soviet player making a sizable mistake and BrianG exploiting it in a clever and energic way.

Beyond that, I think it boils up to why one plays the game. For fun or for winning. 2 very different perspectives. If he plays for fun, then he will see this as an interesting situation and try to find ways to recover ASAP and minimise the defeat. And maybe exploit in his turn a German mistake which might happen, there are so many turns remaining and the Soviets have resilience. Else he will resign and miss a good chance to learn in adversity.

[BrianG]

I hear Bitburg does not quit!

He has made mistake, one to learn from. I also think based on Xhoel game he may be hoarding his best units. These shells will no be very week for a long time upon returning.

Anyhow I now contemplate "can I take Moscow"? before mud.

Open. Close to 40 to 45 divisions trapped.

Now that's a RED army!

[BrianG]

My tanks up north are kaput for attack on Moscow. Way to far from railheads, and very low on fuel now. By the time the get fuel it will be too late.

[BrianG]

My extra armor, plus my blue tank corp are now being rr to Tula area.

1 to take Tula and 2 to be the southern pincer in a 'maybe' move on Moscow.

[BrianG]

STalino captured.

Very heavy air action

[BrianG]

more south action


HUGE air battle!

Very odd how some rare battles end up with massive number of aircraft involved.

[BrianG]

I then launched myself towards Rostov.

At this point I am trying to configure my best end positions.

Clearly the port will hold and russians will have some supply next turn.

[BrianG]

I decide to narrow the enemy front and hold on.

[BrianG]

final Crimea.

I think this sums up the whole turn down there.

[BrianG]

Tula final

My tanks position for attack on river and thence Tula

[BrianG]

VV

East off VV I break through..., resulting in::

Drum roll:

Next slide...

[BrianG]

Another sizable pocket.

[joelmar]

Aouch, the shit hit the fan big time for your opponent this turn. A lot of units lost and holes everywhere. A pity the supply leash will now limit your advance. Moscow indeed looks a hard proposition before mud, but probably a winter offensive could at least reach it. Anyway, you will have an uneventful Blizzard and a nice situation for 1942, nicely done, congrats. [:)]

[chaos45]

Still with 2-3 turns before mud or so....situation is looking very grim for the soviets....50 divisions lost..in one turn followed up by an additional 20+ defacto encircled and lost the very next turn. If the problem when you lose a huge amount of units as the Soviets in 1941 it then makes the next/follow on german panzer operations able to more easily pick up more encirclements--since you start to lack forces for depth/flank protection everywhere. My guess most those soviet units shown on recon in the depth are all junk/empty shells or at best raw divisions with almost no EXP so not much of a line. North of Moscow the soviet army basically doesn't exist.

Should have an easy time reaching Tula at least before mud if not further. Moscow may be out of reach due to the all encirclements you have going on.....but the encirclements are actually probably more damaging than actually taking Moscow. If you can push the frontline at least close to Moscow and get your winter troops to the Moscow area to resist being pushed back all winter it will for sure fall in 1942....and you probably still have a decent shot at least as of this turn of even taking it just before Blizzard as you will have several turns after mud and with the state of the soviet army I don't think they will be much stronger by the end of the mud.

[chaos45]

Xhoel---as to balance---as I said the soviet player made a huge mistake he is unlikely to recover from it.

This next patch will be very interesting---the Exp fix back to rules as written will be a large improvement in Soviet CV by November 1941. This alone will go a long way to fixing the balance...as it not only massively affects CV it also made the Soviets dig in super slow since they had no experience.

Patches have proven to be junk changes some of the time like the Soviet airforce exp patch that had to be immediately changed back because it made the soviet air force basically not fly it lowered their EXP so far. Not all patching is good for game or balance.

The only concern I have is the new supply system and if its overbalanced one way or the other.

[BrianG]

The newest pocket is opened. I will need to reseal and infantry thus can't move south to north Moscow area as fast as needed.

This will end all thoughts of an immediate thrust towards Yaroslava.

I will try and capture Cherepovets (a goal).