Multitude of bugs

[decourcy]

Hi all,

I am hoping to get some response from long time players for their experiances.

I am playing the allies in a scn 17 PBEM game. It is about 7/25/42.
I have lost 4 carriers so when Sara arrived I just pulled its planes off and sent them to Efate because my opponent had just taken Luganville. That worked well, and we created a new Iron Bottom sound off of Luganville. Then, he moved a huge invasion fleet to Port Moresby. I had Wasp by this point and I knew many of his carriers were damaged or sunk so I decided to send two SC task forces and a Carrier force. So, I flew my carrier planes from Efate to Noumea and next turn loaded them on Sara. Well, the fighters and both Dauntless squads loaded. The Avengers will not load. All squadrons are at normal full strength. I have not disbanded any squadrons into these units. Morale is acceptable. Why will my Avengers not load on the Sara?

The only thing i can think of is maybe the squadron was Devastators when it arrived but upgraded to Avengers after I stripped the squadrons. Would that affect anything?

Next, I did find a sorta fix for the squadrons with weird pilots bug....
If you withdraw a squadron with too few or too many pilots it will arrive with the correct number of pilots. However, you will never see Harold Bauer fly in this Pacific War, he is a desk commander only...

This is just an observation but for what its worth....
In Carrier Strike and PacWar Dive bombers were more accurate than torpedo bombers, in UV that seems to be reversed. I think this is part of the reason Japan tends to win most otherwise even carrier battles. I hit my opponents carriers in the game i mentioned above and caught him using all but the Ryujo as LRCAP for the transports.
I got the first two strikes, I was totally untouched by the Ryujos fighters, my 76 Dauntlesses and 30 Devastators scored... 3 bomb and 1 torpedo hit. All on the Ryujo. Then his planes sank both of my carriers.
Thats all fine and such but it seems to be, in my experience, the way battles go as dive bombers don't get many hits. Japan can survive this with their hordes of Kates, but the Allies can not.

Oh, yeah, I also (same game) have a B17 Squadron at Noumea that has 2 undamaged bombers and 3 damaged bombers. Noumea has never been attacked. Those 3 bombers have been damaged since their first attack in June. So for more than a month they have not repaired 1 plane! Luck? Whats up?

Mike

[Bodhi]

Oh, yeah, I also (same game) have a B17 Squadron at Noumea that has 2 undamaged bombers and 3 damaged bombers. Noumea has never been attacked. Those 3 bombers have been damaged since their first attack in June. So for more than a month they have not repaired 1 plane! Luck? Whats up?

Hi Mike,

Maybe there's no-one there that knows how to repair them. How many aviation support points at the base?

[decourcy]

Um, its Noumea, there is about 250 aviation support points.

I have at Noumea 2 Squadrons B17's, 1 Sq Hudsons, 1 Sq P400's, 1 Sq Wildcats and 1 sq of Catalinas.

Plenty of available support. There are 2 AV's in harbour as well.

Mike

[decourcy]

Small addition.

I have 25 B24's in my pool. When will they update a B17 squadron?
Am I missing something? Everything else seems to update fine.

Mike

[Tristanjohn]

I currently have similar squadron-won't-get-off-the-dime problem, this, too, at Noumea, but it's Wildcats not B-17s and the thing is they've been stuck on 6 fatgue now for four stright turns. They're a reinforcement with 57 experience in Scenario 14. It might be a tad early to say if it's a bug or just chance--I'd guess the latter.

Re bugs with flying planes on and off carriers: I've more than once transferred planes to and from land bases off CVs only to find a phantom Boston with "0" aircraft listed below the other carrier squadrons.

No doubt there's more weirdness in there.

[Oleg Mastruko]

Hi all,

I am hoping to get some response from long time players for their experiances.

First off, your post is titled "multitude of bugs" which is a sure way to get old and most experienced UV players mildly irritated . Even moreso, because, in fact, you talk about one single issue that may be bug (Avengers won't load) and other issues are just confusion in your head. Please, by all means, you're welcome to ask anything on other boards, but it's not appropriate to flood Bug board with "How do I...?" type of questions, classified as "bugs".

Avengers on Sara. Squardons sometime won't load unless the target ship is part of the task force. Try putting Sara into some TF and then try to load aircraft on the ship. Also, check that you didn't accidentaly load some other squadron on Sara, thus overloading the CV.

This is just an observation but for what its worth....
In Carrier Strike and PacWar Dive bombers were more accurate than torpedo bombers, in UV that seems to be reversed. I think this is part of the reason Japan tends to win most otherwise even carrier battles. I hit my opponents carriers in the game i mentioned above and caught him using all but the Ryujo as LRCAP for the transports.
I got the first two strikes, I was totally untouched by the Ryujos fighters, my 76 Dauntlesses and 30 Devastators scored... 3 bomb and 1 torpedo hit. All on the Ryujo. Then his planes sank both of my carriers.
Thats all fine and such but it seems to be, in my experience, the way battles go as dive bombers don't get many hits. Japan can survive this with their hordes of Kates, but the Allies can not.

NO WAY torp bombers are more accurate than dive bombers!! Play more UV, and see for yourself. Torp bombers are not only less accurate but also die at a much higher rate.

Actually they are most usefull as a team - dive and torp bombers together. If you watch action replays, note that Kates are dreadfully bad against undamaged, fast and manouverable warships. They miss and miss and miss (and die from AA in the process).

BUT, if Vals arrive, and score some hits on target (being dive bombers they score more easily, even on undamaged ships) - then Kates have a feast, and score devastating hits on ships. Damaged, and less manouverable ships are MUCH easier to hit with torp bomber.

So, at the end of a well coordinated attack - what you see is many torp hits, that eventually sink the ship, but they would never be scored if it wasn't for Vals hitting the ship first.

This is also perfectly logical and historic. IJN doctrine was for Vals to attack first, damage the ship and destroy AA guns, and then for Kates to strike. (Of course, in war as in UV, it's not easy to coordinate attacks perfectly, thus Kates oftenly attack alone.)

Also, try putting dive bombers at 15k feet if you wish to obtain 9-plane flights attacking simoultaneously (scoring, supposedly, more hits). Some players prefer this setting (I do).

Oh, yeah, I also (same game) have a B17 Squadron at Noumea that has 2 undamaged bombers and 3 damaged bombers. Noumea has never been attacked. Those 3 bombers have been damaged since their first attack in June. So for more than a month they have not repaired 1 plane! Luck? Whats up?

4 engine planes repair very very slowly in UV, by design. Also check whether you have enough ground support troops available.

O.

[decourcy]

Hi all,

Oleg,

Please do not bother responding to my posts any longer if you are going
to act a twit.

There are a grand total of 4 bugs I mentioned in my two posts. And I did not say 'multitude of bugs' to twist your knickers, I said it because I have a quirky sense of humor (as DadMan can attest) and it seemed appropriate.

Thank you for the information on putting carriers into a TF, I will try that. I do, however, feel that qualifies as a bug when i cannot load 1 of 4 squadrons onboard a carrier, but the others load fine. No, I have not loaded any other planes on that carrier and I know how to play this game and I have been gaming for 23 years and my IQ is slightly higher than your average toaster.

/quote/
NO WAY torp bombers are more accurate than dive bombers!! Play more UV, and see for yourself. Torp bombers are not only less accurate but also die at a much higher rate.
/end/

I have played a fair amount of UV; With the Japanese I have been keeping track of hits because i was interested and i because am anal.
In 5 PBEM games and a fair amount of fiddling against the computer, not counting 60kg bomb hits Japan has slightly more torpedo hits than bombs. The Americans in my games are scoring 1 torpedo hit per 4.5 bomb hits in my games. That is even though Devestators often don't strike at all do to range restrictions or strike with bombs.

Did Devestators ever hit anything with a torpedo? I actually don't know the answer. You are correct that torpedo bombers die much quicker than dive bombers though.

Your '4 engine bombers repair more slowly' innanity not withstanding, it has been 45 days! The planes would have been written off if mechanics cound not fix them in that time. Would you like me to play the full 600 turns and then come back and tell you about the 3 damaged B17's then? would it be a bug then, hmm?

Oh, and the Wildcat squadron (amoung others) with 9 pilots is not a bug? The fact that i found a sorta fix for that was worth a positive comment, I thought.

Michael

[Oleg Mastruko]

Hi all,

I have played a fair amount of UV; With the Japanese I have been keeping track of hits because i was interested and i because am anal.
In 5 PBEM games and a fair amount of fiddling against the computer, not counting 60kg bomb hits Japan has slightly more torpedo hits than bombs. The Americans in my games are scoring 1 torpedo hit per 4.5 bomb hits in my games. That is even though Devestators often don't strike at all do to range restrictions or strike with bombs.

Did Devestators ever hit anything with a torpedo?

CVL Shoho for starters? In reality they didn't have much chance to attack (let alone hit) anything since they were "phased out" very early in war. Like you, I am not an expert on operational history of Devastator, but if they managed to put some torps into Shoho I'd say they did pretty well, all things considered.

As for the torp aircraft accuracy and number of hits, I tried to tell you that torp bombers DO score, but mainly after the ship has been already damaged by dive bombers. What oftenly happens is this: when the ship is reduced to burning wreck, MORE Kates come and score MORE hits (although the ship would most probably sink without them), and you see something like:

CV Lexington - bomb hits 6, torpedo hits 7, heavy damage

What the report does not say is that crucial early hits were obtained by bombs, not torps, and that perhaps 3-4 of torp hits were obtained in the massive strike after the ship was already doomed, or perhaps AA ammo expended (it does happen in consecutive massive strikes).

In my experience, Kates attacking fully operational, undamaged CV with plenty of AA ammo die like flies (not to mention those that already died of CAP) without scoring. First hit is hardest to obtain and after that it goes much easier.

Your '4 engine bombers repair more slowly' innanity not withstanding, it has been 45 days! The planes would have been written off if mechanics cound not fix them in that time. Would you like me to play the full 600 turns and then come back and tell you about the 3 damaged B17's then? would it be a bug then, hmm?

Oh, and the Wildcat squadron (amoung others) with 9 pilots is not a bug? The fact that i found a sorta fix for that was worth a positive comment, I thought.

Do you fly that B17 squadron that refuses to repair fully? Or do you rest them? Did you cgeck whether you have any air support crews in that base? Check it out.

Wildcat squadron should fill up with new pilots in several days (week, max).

O.

[decourcy]

Oleg,

The B17 squadron is at Noumea; I have 250 Av support or so and only 80 planes or so. There is plenty of regular support as well. I have set them to 'stand down' for 25-30 days. I set them to train 30% for a week. I then set them to port attack Luganville for a week. They have not ever repaired any aircraft and they have never launched a strike on Luganville. Although I believe that is a 2 operational aircraft issue; I have never seen a LBA unit with 2 ready aircraft ever fly a mission, I do not have a problem with that though.

Have you ever played UV scn 17? or do you just make this stuff up?
The 212th fighter squadron always starts with 9 pilots and never seems to have more than 10. Ever. Ever. Got it? The 67th FS seems to always start with 51 pilots or so and never gets fixed. The Japanese have the limited pilot problem with some of their reinforcement air units; one or more of them will enter with too few pilots and never gain any. It does not seem to be as fixed as the US problems though.

Mike

[Oleg Mastruko]

Oleg,

Have you ever played UV scn 17? or do you just make this stuff up?
Mike

Ouch, you got me. Yes, I'm just making this stuff up...

Of course I played #17. I can't remember 212th right now, but I control my squadrons turn after turn, and they are all OK and have enough pilots (so that implicitly includes 212th). One P39 squadron does begin with 51 or 53 pilots - that is right, so?

Still, the fact that pilot replenishment and B17 repair work for me, does not mean they work for you. But since you put this discussion as "you vs. me" and ask whether I "make stuff up" or do squadrons really work for me, then I say - they work for me, sorry.

IJN units do sometimes enter with too few pilots but they do fill up nicely.

Here's another suggestion for you - I beleieve for squadron to be able to fill up, it has to be within range of Brisbane and Noumea (Truk for IJN). I know this is valid for aircraft upgrades, not sure if it works for pilots too. If 212th is equipped with short ranged planes (as it most probably is) try putting it in Noumea or Brisbane for a week or two and see what happens.

Also, do you run patch 2.30?

O.

[mogami]

Hi, Airgroups short of pilots will draw new pilots when all aircraft in group fly. So for bomber groups just do 1 turn training 100 percent. Fighters do LRCAP.

Example" Bomber or fighter group has max ac but is short pilots. By training 100 percent or flying LRCAP (1 100 pecent mission) they will draw new pilots and be at full strength (a pilot for every undamaged before mission ac)

[decourcy]

Just in case you have not noticed,

The 212th Marine fighters starts in Noumea and I have not moved them ever. They never gain any pilots. In any iteration. They never gain any pilots. In any iteration. Several zero squadrons have also had this problem. Trust me, they were within range of Truk.
Yes, i am running 2.30
Yes, it says 2.30 when i start.
Yes, I know how to run a computer.

I am happy none of these errors happen to you but i do not understand how that can be... there is only 1 scn 17 data base.

Mogami,
that LRCAP/100% train will fix the low pilot squadrons? cool!
That is better than my solution of withdrawing the group.

Oleg,
I did not put this discussion as 'you vs me', you did that for me when you jumped in with no knowledge, did not have any of these errors,
but still felt you had to jump in and be patronising to a 'newbie'.

Mike

[mogami]

Hi, Try it and let me know the result. (save the file before so if it does not work the debuggers will having a file they can use)

Withdrawing groups would never fix the problem (Withdrawn groups keep the pilots and transfer the ac so the remaining group would be worse off then before-more ac then pilots) Disbanding would send the pilots as well as the aircraft and give a good remaining group.

The difference is withdrawn groups only need 30-90 days to reform
Disbanded groups require 360 days to reform.

[decourcy]

Mogami,

Actually, for whatever reason, withdrawing does work. I have tried it with vmf 212 which was stuck at 9 pilots... i withdrew it, it came back with 24 pilots. Don't know why... it just happened. But I like your method better, so I will try it today.

Mike

[mogami]

Hi, Ok I see what you meant. I was thinking more about helping the unit that remained behind after you withdrew. (Only the ac transfer.)
The withdrawn unit should return with a pilot for every aircraft. Some of these pilots will be the ones withdrawn the rest will be new pilots from the replacement pool. If you disband the unit when it returns all the pilots will be new. (Groups that fly aircraft with low replacement rates (B-17) might return with 0 AC and 0 pilots (since a group only gets a pilot if it has AC)

[decourcy]

Yes, I just withdraw the 212th into the Lexs airgroup.

I tried putting Sara into a TF and then load the Avenger squad and that worked.... However weird that might mbe. That is still a bug as far as I am concerned.

Any thoughts from the devs on my B17s refusing to repair?

I was really hoping for something, although i am quite glad of the help Mogami gave me for the airgroups.

Mike