Naval Model

[mavraamides]

Has anyone had time to play around with the naval part yet?

I feel like that has always been a weak spot for the vast majority of WWII grand strategy games and reading about the design of this one it seems to be a big leap forward.

So just interested. Does it work in practice?

[gravyhair]

Yes, I think it does. In practice it's sort of a TF-based hybrid-WEGO system. My LBA often fails to locate, and so do enemy fleets. It's intriguing. Much better than SC.

[Worg64]

Yes so far it has worked fine for me. I have had some sub combat but also surface to surface combat and also air versus surface combat. I really like it and its need for finding and spotting make it most realistic.
A huge improvment in naval combat since the huge amount of volume made it hard find enemies on the seas.

[mavraamides]

SOLD!.. to the man in the funny hat.

Watching tutorials now while I download.

Thank you to the developer(s)!

[James Taylor]

Trying the naval aspects, I sent 2 CVs in separate fleets to strike the Kiel Canal port, on station for 2 turns, weather clear.

4 times in a row I get "no enemy fleet found", understanding that this is a low recon environment. So I fly bombers to the hex(port) for additional strike and recon.

Still again same message. Can you imagine in the Pacific the Kido Butai strikes at Pearl Harbor to start the war and they get "no enemy fleet found".[&:]

[Worg64]

ORIGINAL: James Taylor

Trying the naval aspects, I sent 2 CVs in separate fleets to strike the Kiel Canal port, on station for 2 turns, weather clear.

4 times in a row I get "no enemy fleet found", understanding that this is a low recon environment. So I fly bombers to the hex(port) for additional strike and recon.

Still again same message. Can you imagine in the Pacific the Kido Butai strikes at Pearl Harbor to start the war and they get "no enemy fleet found".[&:]

Maybe if fleets in port was attacked by naval air bombers it would always find them BUT that said it would be really hard tp make a attack as such in times of war with all AA, air cover and secured docks. Reason Pearl harbour succeded was because it was a surprise attack and that the USA handled the sightings really poor. Same goes for the Brittish air attack on the French naval fleet after Vichy creation. Otherwise in war time I would say bombing fleets in port should be very difficult but doaable. After all you can buy AA units and have fighters interceptors.

[James Taylor]

So I guess we can't pull off the Taranto raid either with a few lowly Swordfish![8|]

[gwgardner]

ORIGINAL: James Taylor

So I guess we can't pull off the Taranto raid either with a few lowly Swordfish![8|]

You can indeed pull off such a raid. The targeted ships still have to be reconned and sighted, however. The game models the varying effects of cloud cover, pilots not flying optimal routes, or whatever other circumstances might make it impossible to actually hit a ship in port - by requiring that a target actually be sighted.

In one playtest game, my opponent attempted to take Norway too early. He had not prepared with any air cover in Denmark or northern Germany. So he sent in an invasion force to Oslo, and failed to take it on the first turn of the invasion. Thus he had troops outside Oslo, with no air support. He brought in the Kriegsmarine for beachhead supply, and had other ships brought forward to Copenhagen for later support missions. I was able to send in carriers from the UK to target both the beachhead supply ships, and the ships currently in port in Copenhagen. That's just one example of targeting ports successfully.

[Zovs]

Thanks for not mentioning any names in my bungled Norway invasion, lol. Lessons learned, took me 2 months to clean up my mess. Lol

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: James Taylor

Trying the naval aspects, I sent 2 CVs in separate fleets to strike the Kiel Canal port, on station for 2 turns, weather clear.

4 times in a row I get "no enemy fleet found", understanding that this is a low recon environment. So I fly bombers to the hex(port) for additional strike and recon.

Still again same message. Can you imagine in the Pacific the Kido Butai strikes at Pearl Harbor to start the war and they get "no enemy fleet found".[&:]

Pearl Harbour occured while the two nations were at peace. Think Midway or Coral Sea, in which recon was the essential factor.

This is still a strategic wargame but it handles the naval war well, in my view. Better than most games of this scale.

[AlvaroSousa]

Remember just because the Taranto raid happened doesn't mean there wasn't vast amount of luck involved. If it was easy they would do it over and over again.

There are many abstract variables that contribute to naval combat. The closer you are to your own land the higher the recon level. Sending a fleet to a remote location without recon hoping to catch an enemy fleet with their pants down and not be retaliated on is a risky task.

[TrogusP96]

Alvaro, I enjoy reading your thinking about naval combat. You are right. I recounted Midway to my girlfriend at her birthday dinner in some detail and surprised myself at how many things had to happen for it to turn out the way it did.

[mroyer]

ORIGINAL: TrogusP96
I recounted Midway to my girlfriend at her birthday dinner in some detail...

And she is still your girlfriend? [X(]

-Mark R.

[TrogusP96]

I know she finally had to squeeze my hand and say she had to go to the bathroom. It was too much for her. And I paid for dinner. Don't know if I'll get away with it again.[&o] I've also told her about this new game, WP - a little.

[mroyer]

ORIGINAL: TrogusP96
...I've also told her about this new game, WP...

Boundless bravery... you are my hero! [&o]

[abulbulian]

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Remember just because the Taranto raid happened doesn't mean there wasn't vast amount of luck involved. If it was easy they would do it over and over again.

There are many abstract variables that contribute to naval combat. The closer you are to your own land the higher the recon level. Sending a fleet to a remote location without recon hoping to catch an enemy fleet with their pants down and not be retaliated on is a risky task.

Agreed. I read a book about this raid and there were a large amount of factors that all had to happen for it to be as successful as it was. With Pearl Harbor there was a lot more planning and training by the Japanese naval and air forces, but still some luck in not being detected. Once could also say the sink of the Bismark was a stoke of luck for the allies as well. Lots of 'bad' luck for the Germans. Once factor, not luck, that could have changed the outcome is if the German air force and navy were competing less and collaborating more. Unfortunately for Germany, that is not how Hitler liked to run things, he usually allowed/encouraged individuals and departments to compete against each other.