Red Army Barb 41 forward defense

[jjdenver]

I've heard some players espouse a forward defense for SU in a 41 Barb with WIF7. Defending Bessarabia seems like a no-brainer if you have it (to allow Odessa fact rail out) but I am looking for some opinions about forward defense in other areas.

Something like the pic shown with G as Gar, I as INF, C as CAV. This definitely sacrifices 4 BP (2xGAR in Kaunas, Lvov) to buy an impulse but the INF and CAV may be able to run away after Kaunas and Lvov fall.

Does this sacrifice of BP's seem worth it to slow the Germans for an impulse? I've always defended farther back but am always tempted to try this sort of defense. Thoughts? ty.

[TeaLeaf]

IMHO it can definately be done (I would man the entire Neman Riverline with a speedbump in the Forest east of East prussia).

On one hand the risk seems higher than with a rearward defense, but on the other hand...
...That risk is not much higher than when the German land- and airforces arrive at your rearward positions and the grinding starts. The thing the rearward defense does is postponing the meatgrinder by about 3 impulses (unless Germany preemptively jumps at you in April already).

While defending in the rear, Germany can also just start its meatgrinding deeper into Russia -closer at the vital resources and strategic positions- at the loss of just a couple of impulses. It 'll cost Germany about 3 impulses to get all land and air at the rearward front. Defending the forward positions should mean it takes Germany a LOT longer than 3 impulses to reach the rearward river lines in full. If you can keep most Russian units alive (for example by losing them as shatter-results), this does also means Germany will not penetrate as deeply into Russia as it could have done if you set up the rearward defense.

Just some tips if you want to try it a couple of times:

- Building land units is absolutely of the highest priority. Only build FTR and a couple of Pilots with spare BPs. You cannot afford any other shiny/exotic build strategies.
- You must put almost every land unit you can lay your hands on at that front (so in the end not a lot of troops going to Japan).
- Try to dictate where Germany can/will attack you instead of the other way around, by creating strong parts of the frontline that are high risk to attack (low odds/modifiers for Germany) and weak(er) parts.
- Use ARM/MECH units mostly or even exclusively south in super-strong stacks, set up around Odessa behind the river. The Germans won't be able to attack them the first month.
- Don't do a forward defense half-heartedly. It's all or nothing at all in those forward positions.
- Never defend a hex with less than 3 units or (if you can help it) if that hex can be attacked from 3 or more hexes. Unless it is a mountain hex or most attackers come from behind a river. In those cases I count 'attacking hexes' as half.. Also you can ofc leave strong stacks in hero cities that will be tough to crack.
- As an exception to the above 'rule', sure you can put a few obvious speedbumps on the map (single weak corps sized unit that cannot be overrun) to buy some time. Most notably during the first impulse to protect the parts of the front that you designated as the strong part, from Germany negating rivers. Just don't use speedbumps a lot.
- Counterattack. But only at high odds/modifiers and then only at the end of the turn. Especially in the south (where all your ARM units pose a serious threat to an Adolf who thinks he is invulnerable).
- Last but not least, ensure that you'll get a lot of allied help in BP's and resources that you lose. If playing 1v1 This shouldn't be much of a problem [;)]. As a rule of thumb, make sure Russia's production does not fall below its own potential. That is (out of scratch) 28 factories * its PM. Try to rail out the factories that you must rail out as few as possible at a time and don't lose a lot of them to keep allied help to Russia as low as possible. That allied help needs to be quite huge if things go south in Russia, as it's production should not fall far below 42BPs (assuming a PM of 1,5).

Of course, all of this doesn't help you much if your opponent is super-aggressive and very lucky.
Like, always attacking even at low odds/modifiers but never rolling <23 (roll + modifier on the 2D10 CRT). I once had to deal with such an assault and I can tell nothing can help you then...

So HF and GL [:)]

[jjdenver]

Thanks for the reply. I don't think I'm willing to put the full Red Army on that frontline because I've faced that and cackled with glee as I pulverized the Red Army in 41 and was at the Urals by JA 42. I was just thinking of spending a few BP's to slow the Germans by an impulse or 2 and have an outside shot at flipping something as well as slow the rebase of planes forward.

Your idea seems to be to go hell for leather but I've seen that backfire in a big way. Maybe it can be done but I'm scared to try it as the Reds. My question was more around whether a limited forward defense that costs SU about 2xGAR and maybe 1 INF is worthwhile. Possibly not - that's 7 BP's that could be spent actually trying to kill Germans. I wish MWIF had GBA's that's a huge loss for SU.

[Centuur]

It's difficult to give a good solution for the Soviet defence. The problem Uncle Joe has, is that he lacks land moves and he is totally depending on how much time Germany spends to get to Paris and how the Japanese are doing against China.

You don't know when Germany can break the garrison. Somehow, World In Flames makes it almost a must do to stuff the border, or else Germany will DoW you earlier than planned. It only takes one reasonable weather roll (snow will do if the Soviets are defending backwards, since snow doesn't mean a loss of movement points) and war starts...

[TeaLeaf]

Good point if the Soviets defend back then Germany can attack whenever it wants.
Absolutely no difficulty breaking the pact.

@JJ:
Anythime .
Leaving a few cheap single unit speedbumps won't hurt if you have them to spend. Just don't overdo it, and don't do it if it compromises your actual rearward defenseline.

You could just practice Barbarossa scenario a couple of times, or play forward defense solitaire, just for practice.
Or you play a 'cooperative' game online with someone also interested in trying out this particular defense.
If you think about it, rearward isn't anything other than forward, except that the meatgrinding starts a couple of impulses later (and deeper into Russia). Once Germany has moved its army and Luftwaffe to the rearward defense line, the grinding that starts is just the same.

Pulverizing the Red Army or bogging down against it isn't just a matter of the forward or rearward defense. Dice play a huge role, alas, as does the skill of the players, ofc.
I've seen a German assault in Russia getting seriously bogged down with the forward defense and the German player demoralised.

[brian brian]

You can’t simply make this decision at the beginning of The Great Patriotic War. It is a basic decision you must make over and over again until late 1942 - when to trade unit(s) for an impulse.

[TeaLeaf]

Looking at the picture in the OP again, I think this is too much sacrifice. We're basically talking rearward defense here, with more than a few single unit speedbumbs. You either defend in the rear or at the forward positions and in both situations you only sacrifice a few units as speedbumps, if you deem the situation ok.

So yeah, you should go all in either way. Stuffing everything at the border, OR in the rear. A few speedbumps can be sacrificed in both situations, but just a few. While brian hit the nail on its head, I don't agree that you cannot make this very decision during the build up for Barbarossa as well.
But it's hard to talk in absolutes here. In general: if you are fully committed (with almost all your landunits) either in the rear or in forward positions, you surely can spare a few units (2 maybe 3) for speedbumbs in key positions at the start of Barbarossa. Mainly to deny the Germans to ignore rivers during the surprise impulse. Sacrificing more than a few units (5/6 in your pic, assuming one of the Cav survives) may be just too much.

Definately never defend with a part of your force in front and another part in the rear [;)]. Since it's difficult to say when you sacrifice too much, I'd stay on the safe side and never sacrifice more that just a few units.