Training carrier pilots as Allies

[fcooke]

Pilot in that first photo almost certainly must have drowned as it looks like the plane is going over and the airframe isn't that banged up or on fire.....the 2nd one must have led to someone buying many beers when they got into port.

[bomccarthy]

All of the Sangamon CVEs operated F6Fs throughout the entire war. In addition, F6Fs operated from Bogue and Casablanca class CVEs in various operations, providing air support during the Gilberts invasions and the ANVIL invasion (where the F6F scored its only Luftwaffe kills). The Royal Navy also operated Hellcats (and Corsairs) from their Bogue class CVEs.

The Commencement Bay class CVEs operated USMC F4Us during the Okinawa and DEI operations in 1945.

In other words, size did not prevent the operation of F6Fs from CVEs. The most likely reason was an early fear of running out of F6Fs for the fleet carriers; once this fear faded, General Motors was producing so many FM-2s that it was expedient to continue operating them from the Bogue and Casablanca CVEs. They were criticized for being less capable at combating kamikazes during the Luzon invasion in late '44/early '45, but there were not enough F6F squadrons to equip the CVEs and the fleet carriers and there was little time to transition enough of the FM-2 squadrons to F6Fs to make a difference.

[BBfanboy]

No one has mentioned a key facet of aircraft design - the wing shape.
To minimize drag and make them faster, fighters have a smaller wing which means less lift. They have a higher take-off and landing speed.
Aircraft that carry heavy loads have wider wings for more lift. They can fly at lower speeds but have lower max speeds because of the drag.
This could mean that for the smallest CVE class, putting the F6F on them would be feasible but dicey - no room for mistakes or bad weather.

[Macclan5]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Guess in game the Allies will put F6s on most CVEs... as long they have enough (which should be the case, unless heavy losses). But IJN can not put Jakes on Glen subs[:-]

[8D]

These sort of conversations tend to degenerate.

However whether is it 'IJN planes' or "Brave Sir Robin" - One must differentiate:

1) The game.
The game is a historical simulation with many abstracts (generic supply) and allows many things and has counter balances for both players. Hence I concur house rules are not needed because the 'game' offers opportunities / challenges. Chess too has limitations ; may the best player win.

2) The 'gamey'
While there are obvious examples such as sending in a 'lone freighter' on a suicide mission to identify the location of a Carrier Task Force - but most 'gamey' issues are subjective and opinionated - hard to resolve. As such avoid the obvious.

3) The historic.
This is where I tend to play my games. Rooted as close as possible to the historic, dwelling on the "what if", accepting and imposing my own limitations. In this sense House Rules make sense if you can agree to them.

[ITAKLinus]

As Allied, I'm quite inexperienced, I confess openly.


However, I found that training directly on the CVs pays off quite a lot if you don't plan to engage IJN CVs soon.
Groups can train many pilots and some selected actions against enemy shipping reward a lot. For example, a classic cruise to catch some random cargo in Marshalls in the first very few months can help a lot in training pilots.
I don't say you have to attack the Marshalls, I say that some training cruise against soft targets is always the best way to train pilots.


Personally, I'm a great lover of this "learn-by-doing". But I'm also a maniac of good positioning, recon/NavS and SigInt, so I diminish dramatically the possibility of ambushes.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

As Allied, I'm quite inexperienced, I confess openly.


However, I found that training directly on the CVs pays off quite a lot if you don't plan to engage IJN CVs soon.
Groups can train many pilots and some selected actions against enemy shipping reward a lot. For example, a classic cruise to catch some random cargo in Marshalls in the first very few months can help a lot in training pilots.
I don't say you have to attack the Marshalls, I say that some training cruise against soft targets is always the best way to train pilots.


Personally, I'm a great lover of this "learn-by-doing". But I'm also a maniac of good positioning, recon/NavS and SigInt, so I diminish dramatically the possibility of ambushes.

Sounds like you are on the right track Linus! Canoerebel follows the same search and SigInt philosophy so he has a good picture of what is going on and rarely gets surprised. As he put it - Knowledge (of the situation) is the most valuable asset in WITP-AE.

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

As Allied, I'm quite inexperienced, I confess openly.


However, I found that training directly on the CVs pays off quite a lot if you don't plan to engage IJN CVs soon.
Groups can train many pilots and some selected actions against enemy shipping reward a lot. For example, a classic cruise to catch some random cargo in Marshalls in the first very few months can help a lot in training pilots.
I don't say you have to attack the Marshalls, I say that some training cruise against soft targets is always the best way to train pilots.


Personally, I'm a great lover of this "learn-by-doing". But I'm also a maniac of good positioning, recon/NavS and SigInt, so I diminish dramatically the possibility of ambushes.

Sounds like you are on the right track Linus! Canoerebel follows the same search and SigInt philosophy so he has a good picture of what is going on and rarely gets surprised. As he put it - Knowledge (of the situation) is the most valuable asset in WITP-AE.

Yeah. I have two PBEMs going on. And one paused.

In the one paused we're somehow mid-43 and I'm the Japanese.
In one of the 2 I'm doing I'm again Japanese and we're May-42.
The third has just started as Allied player and...

Well, I'm amazed by the huge quantity of stuff the Allies have right from the start and how flexible can be their initial steps. For example: SigInt provides a huge amount of info. If you couple them with decent Catalina NavS from, say, Philippines [my enemy decided to skip them since I always skip them and has copied "my" opening], well even crappy USN subs can be amazing.

And terrible pilots can still do something. For example: I got the first group of Banshee, placed them at PM with their mighty exp around 12ish and they obliterated a small amphibious TF in Buna.
Now they have way more exp.


These actions make your pilots stronger and stronger over time at relatively little risk, acting as a sort of force multiplier.



As Japanese I always struggle to have a decent pool of competent DB/TB pilots for example. After a long time I concluded that the best way is to use crappy pilots at the beginning in order to train them up. In the PBEM in May-42 a Japan, I changed most of the pilots around 10-DEC. I have already done several training cycles directly on CVs. I'm satisfied. I'm besieging Sidney and have almost already acheived 4:1 in score. Fact I have used CVs as a training platform hasn't prevented good results, then.
In the other PBEM, mid-43, I haven't done that and I'm now short of a large pool of very well trained pilots. I conquered India, though. So a good ROI for the massive bloodbaths I had in the Indian Ocean. But now I'm not really in good shape, so to say. And the enemy has the whole RN sunk, yes, but most of the USN alive and fighting. Quite a complex situation for me.


What I try to say is that marginal operations can improve a lot pilots' skills. Keeping them on carriers make them underutilised assets. Moreover, you can swap pilots and put the good ones right before unexpected situations (as Japanese I send back all the crappy guys and put on only TRACOM assh@les once I am 2-3 days of navigation from an enemy AirTF).


Also, consider that there are few creative ways of training pilots.

For example, as Allied: have you ever thought about taking away your TB pilots, putting on replacements. Send the TBs to some large base and embark additional DBs and Fs on your CVs. TBs in training.
The relatively good initial TBs' pilots go to some Catalina group and you wreck havoc of random Japanese light shipping in the DEI thanks to the great durability, the two torpedoes and the good range.

[Alpha77]

Training pilots at carriers is also cheaper, I think....If at a base you need (in case of training less) supply and space and air support. Training on "the job" - you need riskless operations or your DB/TB training ends in the waters.

One wonders how much these 4Es gain that bomb your already downbeat bases to the stoneage every turn (until you put a surprise CAP up and down some beasts), with 2 Zeros for 2 4Es being a good trade. With Georges 2 Georges for 5 4Es would be ok. Of course they will respond with some sweeps then you better run with Zeros or Oscars[;)]

I had 2 units of old bombers doing training in China vs. the scattered left overs from the Chinese army (amazingly they still exist even if supply should be out for months now). But the exp gain is low, the ground gain is "soso". I better set them to train a specific skill I have found this to be better than "on the job".

Also e.g. ASW training "OTJ" is not satisfactory imho. They only seem to gain one lousy exp and/or ASW point if they actually hit a sub (or claim to have done so)...

And btw. these lowly Banshee pilots often score I noted this already. One can get away with lower exp and (in this case) navb in certain missions vs. cargos. But try this with fighter pilots they are much more dependent on a good state BEFORE entering combat (IME) this is for PBM. However vs. the AI which might send lone Nettie strikes also worse pilots can score.

Ahh and I guess you have a secret how your cats with torps avoid CAP? When they "wreck havoc of random Japanese light shipping in the DEI" [:'(]

[ITAKLinus]

It's not such a complex task to kill Japanese light stuff in the DEI.

Suppose the enemy skips Philippines. He just doesn't conquer them.

You send Catalina in the theater leaving relatively few in the Pacific. That's a very big tradeoff but that has also been my choice.

PH => Midway => Guam => DEI. Both Catalina and B-17.



Now, you have very few locations able to support torps. Namely, Manila-Soerabaja-Singers.

If the enemy has skipped Philippines invasion and has done a huge Mersing gambit at 7-DEC, he will have for sure a lot of stuff to be moved around Philippines going to the DEI. That's where you can hurt him. Either he assigns LRCAP (not working well and short-legged) or he uses a random CVL with fighters as an escort for his convoys. But he has many many relatively little TFs moving around.
Your guys make few hits and sink a lot of stuff combined with aggressive SS and NavS.

I also employ extensively (well... "extensively" relative to the numbers present in the area at the start...) both Seagulls and P-40 in LowN. They are doing really well. I just obliterated a little TF with xAKs/xAKLs/PBs near Davao using those P-40s in LowN.
I think it's better to use those P-40s in this way, while I wait to buy them out of the area, rather than make them cannon fodder for Formosa's Zeros.

When the enemy approaches Java, also, it can be interesting to use Catalina in NavT. Of course, any competent Japanese player will bomb your AFs into oblivion and attack with strong aerial cover from CVLs and/or CVs, but... There is always something which goes wrong, some mistakes, some random reacting in the general mess of TFs going around, pesky allied PTs engaging over and over and... At that point you try to sneak in your stuff into an open AF (I generally use Madioen; AF=4, not on the sea and on good terrain) and unleash your guys over enemy's scattered TFs. Those which eventually go on enemy's AirTFs will be murdered, the others will do some damage.


It depends on your grand strategy. I personally like to have huge allied losses in the DEI buying few days to prepare Burma if I opt for a Burma defence. Few days can mean a couple of Australian DIVs more into the theater. Not much, not little.

Also from Singers: once the enemy has attacked Mersing, he generally retreats his TFs. It means that you can punish his attempts of attacking other positions pretty well given the naval attack mechanics of the game. For example: a classic move is to rush on Mersing, unload a huge amount of stuff, retreat and then attack N-E Borneo. You can kill several stuff during the move over N-E Borneo: your TBs haven't the range to threat them during the approach, your Catalina do.

Enemy's LRCAPs aren't a big problem. Enemy's CAPs are, but in case I soften them using B-17s I deployed from Philippines and PH. They damage all those pesky A6M2s/Oscar-Ics and then I am pretty sure Catalina can do their honest job.


It's just a matter of playing with ranges, positioning, NavS/SigInt, psychology and numbers. I do not say you kill the KB with a random group of Catalina, but I highlight that you can capitalize pretty well many opportunities and that's all I look for: side attacks on the enemy, capitalization over his mistakes, random hits/kills to slow his operations down.
For me, it's a matter of strategy. My grand strategy requires more time than what I do have with Mersing at day-1 and Philippines skipped, therefore I do what I can to gain every little bit of time to arrive at Jan-42 when my Burma defences will be ready and Indian Theater strongly reinforced.

In the meanwhile, I am perfectly open to lose the whole Pacific region to Japanese. Including PH if needed. I play DEI with the obvious idea of losing badly the ballte but accomplishing a strategic gain where it is important to me. That's why I throw into the meatgrinder extremely relevant assets such as Catalinas or B-17s.


I even sent a random Australian DIV to set up a tougher fight in Java. I know they'll die miserably. They'll buy some time, though.

[Alpha77]

Interesting ideas which one could use who starts a new Allied PBM...

On the IJN side their flying boats could be used to simmilar manner but are quite expensive to lose (4E). But for sure they hit quite good with torpedoes even if trained only in the 40s (IME) as long facing no big thread from Allied air and/or AA.

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Interesting ideas which one could use who starts a new Allied PBM...

On the IJN side their flying boats could be used to simmilar manner but are quite expensive to lose (4E). But for sure they hit quite good with torpedoes even if trained only in the 40s (IME) as long facing no big thread from Allied air and/or AA.

Oh they're very good. Don't ask me how, but I managed to plant 2 torpedoes on a British CV with Mavis. It was a very confused engagement though and the guys simply slipped in.


I see few drawbacks:

1) Mavis/Emily are expensive as f@@k for Japan.
2) They are few and you desperately need them.
3) The mighty couple Nell/Betty is far cheaper, easier to keep active (SR) and with larger groups. Moreover, there are even way more groups, implying that you don't remain blind in many places just to mount a torpedo attack.

In line of principle you need to put Betty/Nell in place of Mavis/Emily for NavS once you want to try a good strike with the latter ones. But there is no need of that since both Betty/Nell can do the very same job, much better, much more reliably and at a much lower cost.
Still, sometimes, highly situational thing, Mavis/Emily can be improperly used in NavT and they do make wonders if they have been trained. As I said, I randomly sent them in NavT during a desperate clash in the Indian Ocean and I badly damaged a British CV. They were around 65-ish NavT skill pilots though.

[Alpha77]

Luckily the IJA has many recon groups (unlike the IJN has few recon+patrol+transport groups) which I use much for nav search - instead of patrols. Only where longer range is required 4E flying boats are used.

Very seldom one gets a message that eg. Dinah hit some ship or sub - but they have no weapons at all (must be FOW).

Emilies should be tougher than Netties tho. I have read however that their real life defensive armament does not translate in the game. Also for some reason even if trained in ASW I seldom get hit messages from flying boats or float planes. OTH trained IJA groups get many hit messages..here one of these units, they can easily fly the older plane up to 10 hexes. I make sure rest is given and no extended range. Still amazing the unit lost only one plane to OPS with a quite high mission count. They lose less planes as other on search or asw IME.

[ITAKLinus]

Yeah I completely agree.

Personally, I use Jakes for day/night NavS and the old 2Es as ASW platforms (I do produce only the Helen-IIa in huge numbers until I have the Peggy-T).

IJAAF recon groups are cool and I suggest everyone not to produce the Dinah-II, which is 2E compared to the initial lovely 1Es with the same range.

The big jump is with the Dinah-III which is absolutely perfect: 2E (compared to 4Es Mavis/Emily), low SR, great number of squadrons and good numbers within the squadrons.
The IJNAF Judy-R (forgot the name of recon version of the Judy) is also extremely good but I use it on CVs so there isn't much space for it in my NavS plans.



Allied players are somehow obliged to pose their NavS in the hands of Catalinas, since other assets are either too valuable/fragile or totally unable to do the job.

Training proper NavS pilots for the allies is harder than for Japan, but I'm a great proponent of quite a high-risk approach since I do not recon properly the Pacific. I just think it's not rewarding: you see the KB and then what? You spot the enemy invasion of Baker Island and then what?

Against inexperienced players, it's always rewarding because they do many invasions with insufficient cover and committing outstanding operational mistakes, but experienced guys, when they go for say Pago Pago, they just take it. Not much to do.

I tend to prefer, paradoxically, heavy NavS in the DEI where forcing bizarre surface combats sacrifying a lot of stuff can be done and can have quite positive long term returns.
Moreover, there are many convoys running around (not aground, sadly).


Training for the allies in the first months it's just random for me. I know I'm wrong, but I like to employ what I have ASAP.
My rule of thumb is that whatever comes after DEC-41 is properly trained. Whatever arrives before, is just sent do die hoping to bring down some japs with them. That's why I like to train pilots directly on carriers.



Another good operations for your pilots training in the first months is to rush off-map to Cape Town and from there make a good strike on either Sumatra OIL or waters around Java. In the first case, then, you go back to Colombo and you might try to delay Japanese operations in the Andamans/Burma. In the second case, you go to Perth and from there to Sidney passing south of Australia.

Japanese NavS cannot do much since they are pressed everywhere to use 4Es, Betty/Nell are highly requested for other duties other than NavS and you might surprise Japanese shipping. Java is very very thin and you can strike from the western side to the eastern side of it without problems, making difficoult surface retailation.

If Sunda Strait is still in Allied hands and is heavily mined, I do that immediately at the beginning of the match, you can also strike on Sumatra on day-2.

Moreover, there are many little Dutch AOs (named "TAN #") which can help to refuel your fleet if positioned westward of Cocos Island. I put some of them near the map border and disband a TK in Cocos. When my CVs arrive, they have the relatively safe refuel of both. Both the TANs and the TK at Cocos then proceed to the border of the map in order to reach CapeTown.



Another undervalued possibility for the allies at the beginning is to try to bomb Onshu. It's f@cking risky, but so psychologically hurting to the Japanese player that I like it a lot. At that point you can sink few ships directly near Tokio or near Hokkaido on the way home. You need a couple of AO-TFs in order to refuel before the full speed rush to Onshu and after the full speed rush to Alaska. Picking the right escorts is important: in line of principle you don't expect subs so there is little need for DDs. There is also little need for surface escort since probably the enemy won't be able to mount an overwhelming reaction. And you can make easily 3 turns in full-speed with an average set of escorts (relatively balanced and not over-maximised for endurance), without emptying the fuel tanks and being able to continue in normal speed afterwards for at least a couple of turns. It means: 1 turn to rush to Onshu. 1 turn to rush from S-E Onshu to SOUTH of Hokkaido. 1 turn to run away from Hokkaido and approach your AO-TF advancing from Aleutinians (which is quite at risk in the whole operation).