Missing Italian BB's

[AlvaroSousa]

WW2 Databook by John Ellis

Italy/France 1939 start

BB 2 / 7
CA 19 / 22
DD 113 / 70
SS 115 / 77


Italy/France in WarPlan

BGs 1 / 4
CGs 3 / 2
PGs 3 / 2
SGs 4 / 1

Italian subs are worse than default subs. 3 / 6 vs 4 / 7 surface/defense
I gave France less subs than they should have for balance and deployment locations.
Italy has one BG being build and will be available 1940.
I gave France one more BG instead of an extra CA because they had 7 BBs and more CAs. Escorts are also spread out with other groups.

WW2 Databook is the most comprehensive data fact book you can buy.

[AlbertN]

Italy had 2 BBs 'ready' at the start of the war. 2 BBs (WW1 Dreadnaught type) coming online in July '40 - after refitting / modernizing.

Littorio and Vittorio Veneto were in the making alongside Roma and Impero (3rd never saw real combat and got sunk in '43 heading to Malta, Impero was stalled due to material shortage), exactly as the Richelieu class for the French.
These too were to see to the sea in mid / late '40.

So I am -highly- skeptical that databook is actually veritable if it forgets of 2 BBs that were pratically there at Italian war entry (delayed by ... 1-2 months like!)

[PanzerMike]

@Alvaro: Thanks for explaining the reasoning behind the the Italian and French fleet.

Still, I think something is not right here with the Italian Fleet. Correct me if am wrong but here it goes:

1939 Scenario
In the 1939 scenario, the on map Italian BB Grp should be named:
Ita. Conte di Cavour BB Grp (representing also the Gulio Cesare).

The build queue should contain 2 BB groups:
Littorio BB Grp (representing also the Vittorio Veneto) with Arrival date APR/MAY 1940
Andrea Doria BB Grp (representing also the Caio Duilio with Arrival date JUL/OCT 1940

So I would say that for the 1939 scenario the Andrea Doria group is missing in the build queue (only the Littorio is present). The BB Roma group can be skipped for the 1939 scenario. Build time for battleships is 700 days in the game. In the 1939 scenario 1942 is 3 years away, so no BB Roma grp in the build queue I would say.

1940 scenario
Here too the on map BB group Andrea Doria should really be named the Conte di Cavour BB Grp. The Littorio group is present and named right. The build queue is missing the Andrea Doria grp, due to arrive somewhere between July and October 1940.

For the 1940 scenario the BB Roma grp could be added, they were finished around June 1942, but the time between 10 May 1940 and 7 June 1942 is 758 days. So it probably should also be left out for the 1940 scenario.
The BB Impero was not finished however (BB Roma was) by that time (it never really was eventually). So perhaps the BB Roma grp could be skipped altogether (since only one BB was really ready in June 1942). But I see in the 1941 scenario in game that you have chosen to add BB Roma grp to the build queue nonetheless. Fair enough.

1941 Scenario
In the 1941 scenario, Italy has 3 BB groups (ie 6 Battleships)! The Andrea Doria grp is present, together with the Littorio grp and the Conte di Cavour grp. The BB Roma group is present in the build queue. The 1941 scenario got it right.

[wosung]

Conway's all the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1947:

France in WW2
Battleships [pp. 257-260]
(Sept.1939): 5 BB, 3 BBs under construction, 4 training ships.

Danton Class
Condorcet (1909), 1927 training ship, August 1944 scuttled by the Germans in Toulouse, refloated, BU Dez.1945.

Courbet Class
Courbet (1911),1926-29 refit, 1939 training ship, June 1940 take over by RN, transferred to FNFL, served as AA guard ship, expanded as part of the Normandy breakwater.
Ocean (1911), 1926-29 refit, 1936 renamed Jean Bart, 1938 disarmed, training ship, March 1944 damaged byx allied bombs and sunk by German explosive trials, salvaged, BU 1946-1947.
Paris (1912),1926-29 refit,1939 training ship, June 1940 take over by RN,accomodation ship, returned to France, August 1945 towed to Brest, BU 1955.

Bretagne Class
Bretagne (1913), 1932-1935 reconstruction, July 1940 destroyed in Mers-el Kebir.
Provence (1913),1932-1935 reconstruction, July 1940 sunk in Mers-el Kebir, raised and repaired in Toulon, Nov. 1942 scuttled, Nov. 1943 salved by the Germans.
Lorraine (1913),1932-1935 reconstruction, June 1940-May 1943 interned at Alexandria, joined the FNFL, served in the Med.

Dunkerque Class
Dunkerque (comp. 1937), 1939 Atlantic Convoy routes, July 1940 damaged in Mers-el Kebir, Nov. 1942 scuttled in Toulon.
Strasbourg (comp. 1938), 1939 Atlantic Convoy routes [...],Nov. 1942 scuttled in Toulon, 1944 returned, Aug. 1944 sunk by Allied Bombs in Toulon.

Richelieu Class
Richelieu (Jul. 1940), 95% completed in June 1940, damaged in Dakar,1942 joined the Allies, refit in the USA, 1944-1945 Far Eastern Fleet.
Jean Bart (Jan 1949), 77% completed in June 1940,escaped to Casablanca, late 1942 forward tower ready to fire, Nov. 1942 damaged during US Invasion.
Clemenceau (incomplete), 10% completed in June 1940, hull floated out in 1943, Aug. 1944 bombed by Allies.

Italy
Battleships [pp.284-290]
(Sept.1939): 2 BB, 2 BBs under reconstruction, 4 BBs under construction.
(June 1940): 4 BB, 2 BBs under reconstruction, 2 BBs under construction.

Cavour Class
Conte di Cavour (1911), 1933-37 modernization, Nov 1940 sunk in Taranto, 1943 scuttled in Triest, Febr. 1945 sunk in Triest.
Gulio Cesare (1911), 1933-37 modernization, 1948 war reparations to SU.

Doria Class
Andrea Doria (1913), 1937 - July 1940 complete reconstruction at Triest, Nov. 1940 damaged at Taranto, by May 1941 repaired in Genoa, March 1942-Sept 1943 refit, Allied Control, 1944 returned.
Caio Duilo (1913), 1937 - Oct. 1940 complete reconstruction at Triest, Nov. 1940 damaged at Taranto, by May 1941 repaired in Genoa, March 1942-Sept 1943 refit, Allied Control, 1944 returned.

Littorio Class
Littorio (comp. May 1940), Nov 1940 damaged at Taranto, Nov. 1940 -Apr. 1941 repair, July 1943 renamed Italia, Sept. 1943 damaged by German air attack, war reparation to USA.
Vittorio Veneto (comp. Apr. 1940), March 1941 damaged at Matapan, repair until Aug 1941,[...] war reparation to UK.
Impero (incomplete), captured by Germans, Febr. 1945 sunk in an air attack.
Roma (June 1942), Sept. 1943 sunk.

[ericdauriac]

@wosung +1

For the navy the reference is Conway's, not WWII databook.

In 1939 for France :

7 Ship capital including three former (WWI: Bretagne, Provence, Lorraine) and two obsolete (Courbet, Paris) and 2 modern (Strasbourg, Dunkerque), plus one commissioned in 1940 (Richelieu).

1 Carrier (Béarn with a capacity of 40 aircraft, but no aircraft available) plus a Seaplane tender (Cmdt Teste)

Heavy Cruisers: 6

Light Cruisers: 13 (including one old one)

In 1939 for Italy :

5 Capital Ship including 4 old ones (Conte di Cavour, Giulio Cesare, Andrea Doria, Caio Duilio), and 3 modern: commissioned Vittorio Veneto and Littorio in 1940 and Roma in 1942.

Heavy Cruisers: 2 obsolete, 6 modern

Light cruisers: 2 obsolete, 12 modern

[AlvaroSousa]

I did some research on the crappy BBs that the Italians had that were missing. I added +1 BG group for the Italians in the early scenarios.

[Michael T]

They were no more crappy than the French WWI BB's.

But thanks for fixing.

[TrogusP96]

Fascinating. Ah research. I'm glad to see people pulling out their sources. I recall when WIF was going to Ships in Flames and the BB evaluations were exhaustive and controversial. The process was transparent. Heck even in the simple old Avalon Hill Victory in the Pacific the ship ratings were explained and you got some ship differences. The game is a story the nations and units the characters. Their individuality generates the color. A challenging task. The graphics the spectacle to use a term I was told about recently from Aristotle. Even though this is a computer game its really a dramatic exercise. Event the term scripts are used. The ships, planes and land unit differences reveal national strengths and weaknesses beyond the base economies. Alvaro has created a game with that can show that. If divisions can be aggregated why not other unit types or broken down. There was a difference between the older BBs and newer. The Strasbourg and Dunkerque had 8 x 13; guns versus 9 x 15 for the Littorios?

The research does not have to be recreated. The tough part is what to do with it.
Some credit Rodney's 16 inch guns with the decisive hits on Bismarcks turrets. Hood is the pride of the RN and istn even shown. The KGW class trounced the German BCs each time? The elements are in place with the different factors like surface attack, defense etc. Or am I missing something.

WarPlan seems to have more potential for the naval war compared to the little I've sen of some games where CVs by them saves are chased down by BBs. I've also said with the build system the cost of two BBs is prohibitive so there may be a loss of here because you cant risk a the cost.

[AlvaroSousa]

I have learned lots of lesson from WarPlan. Somethings I wish I could change. I put them all on a list for WP2 later on down the road. Like this issue. WW1 BBs vs WW2 BBs which were very different.

[AlbertN]

Sent you a PM on how to fix that naval difference Alvaro.
I think it's plenty doable in Warplan already as I doubt anyone will use the Super Warship tech - convert it to Old Warship tech.

[PanzerMike]

Good discussion here. And glad to see Italy receiving its missing BB's, Alvaro. Warplan keeps getting better and better.

[AlvaroSousa]

Thanks.