What the heck????

[battleground]

I have setup and played 4 games since yesterday. 3 full campaign and 1 historical Pearl Harbor.
In every single game the Japanese CVs sit NW of Pearl Harbor and rip its guts out for DAYS. They
sink well over half of anything in the harbor and destroy any land targets. I tried to send out
an "In Harms Way" TF of every cruiser and DD with a gun on it ... surface action in daylight where
about 90% of my shots miss and then his carriers blow the TF to dust bunnies THEN go on to attack
Pearl Harbor again. I know there is a major nerf on the Allies (I have yet to have a torpedo
plane in the Java/Philippines to ever hit something for weeks except cargo ships). I managed
to have a DD group ambush his AO squadron ripping them up but the AI could care less and spends
another day blowing the innards of Pearl. I have abandoned all the games as unplayable as their
seems to be no AI decision of withdrawing after the initial strike. I now have 11 total fighters
in Pearl and I cannot load any in San Francisco. Also the nerf of locking in all forces except by
marching overland so you cannot switch some ground troops to another HQ so I can at least put up
a fight on the Andaman Is. I cannot load US/Dutch/UK troops even when i spend the PP which the
rules say I can do for (R)HQs. I remember the nerfs from WITP other two versions but the AI on
Normal appears to be fanatical about destroying Pearl utterly. I just bought this but will
switch back to the non-Admirals version so I can at least get a start at something. Other players,
please don't tell me how great your games were as that is immaterial. Really a big waste of 2
days of gaming (I have been computer gaming since the 1981).


EDIT: I went to where my old non-admiral version was and i see this OVERWROTE that program. That
is just swell. You think it would have a different file. Now I get to rummage thru old boxes in
the garage to find my hard copy. That is just swell. 2 days wasted and another one tomorrow.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: battleground

I have setup and played 4 games since yesterday. 3 full campaign and 1 historical Pearl Harbor.
In every single game the Japanese CVs sit NW of Pearl Harbor and rip its guts out for DAYS. They
sink well over half of anything in the harbor and destroy any land targets. I tried to send out
an "In Harms Way" TF of every cruiser and DD with a gun on it ... surface action in daylight where
about 90% of my shots miss and then his carriers blow the TF to dust bunnies THEN go on to attack
Pearl Harbor again. I know there is a major nerf on the Allies (I have yet to have a torpedo
plane in the Java/Philippines to ever hit something for weeks except cargo ships). I managed
to have a DD group ambush his AO squadron ripping them up but the AI could care less and spends
another day blowing the innards of Pearl. I have abandoned all the games as unplayable as their
seems to be no AI decision of withdrawing after the initial strike. I now have 11 total fighters
in Pearl and I cannot load any in San Francisco. Also the nerf of locking in all forces except by
marching overland so you cannot switch some ground troops to another HQ so I can at least put up
a fight on the Andaman Is. I cannot load US/Dutch/UK troops even when i spend the PP which the
rules say I can do for (R)HQs. I remember the nerfs from WITP other two versions but the AI on
Normal appears to be fanatical about destroying Pearl utterly. I just bought this but will
switch back to the non-Admirals version so I can at least get a start at something. Other players,
please don't tell me how great your games were as that is immaterial. Really a big waste of 2
days of gaming (I have been computer gaming since the 1981).


EDIT: I went to where my old non-admiral version was and i see this OVERWROTE that program. That
is just swell. You think it would have a different file. Now I get to rummage thru old boxes in
the garage to find my hard copy. That is just swell. 2 days wasted and another one tomorrow.

Given that almost all the players here have tried a grand campaign or two and had to deal with the initial PH attacks, I can only think that with the right settings you can make the second day of Japanese strikes painful enough that KB will leave. We need to see a lot of samples of your settings, like game difficulty, air unit settings (especially CAP altitudes and range) leaders of key units (did you replace any duds?), sub patrols - the list goes on. Send a few screen shots and we can start the post-mortem. Also tell us what patch version of the game you are using and what scenario you are playing.

From players who have played both WITP and WITP-AE, the latter is much more complex and requires a lot of tinkering to understand how things work and what to expect from your settings. Being a WITP player is not enough to guarantee you can play AE right off the bat.

[battleground]

Thanks for the reply. I have removed it from my PC til after I get the old one reinstalled in a different
file so when I reinstall the AE version it will have its proper place. There are two different games and
it should not have overwritten my files and games in my old WITP. In the campaign game you have no way to
preset your bases (the game was set with all historical choices beginning on the 7th at Normal). Four times
Nagumo has not only decided to hit Pearl again he does it on the 8th and 9th and at the same time destroys
the surface TF I can attack him with (3CA 2CL 12DD) and goes back to bombing Pearl. So much damage is done
in the initial strike and the followup one that I find I have less than 15 fighters able to face him and
just about as bad in bombers. Now as a human player that is exactly what I would do... kick your opponent
in the head when he is half conscious on the floor... but where is the % of Nagumo to stay vs Nagumo who
leaves. In all 4 games (1 with PH already done) he always stays. Just bought the game 2 days ago but
have been playing Grigsby's games since the initial Pacific War and War in the South Pacific (where I had
3 I boats flying off the Shokaku... 1 one shot down by AA and I am unsure the gun crew knew how to count
that kill). Its the variable does Nagumo who is cautious wait or leave as in real life. Other than that
(and having to list all the ship types on paper as too many years have passed for me to remember them all.
Wonderful detail. A monster game indeed in the scale of Aurora 4X

[battleground]

duplicate removed

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: battleground

I have setup and played 4 games since yesterday. 3 full campaign and 1 historical Pearl Harbor.
In every single game the Japanese CVs sit NW of Pearl Harbor and rip its guts out for DAYS. They
sink well over half of anything in the harbor and destroy any land targets. I tried to send out
an "In Harms Way" TF of every cruiser and DD with a gun on it ... surface action in daylight where
about 90% of my shots miss and then his carriers blow the TF to dust bunnies THEN go on to attack
Pearl Harbor again. I know there is a major nerf on the Allies (I have yet to have a torpedo
plane in the Java/Philippines to ever hit something for weeks except cargo ships). I managed
to have a DD group ambush his AO squadron ripping them up but the AI could care less and spends
another day blowing the innards of Pearl. I have abandoned all the games as unplayable as their
seems to be no AI decision of withdrawing after the initial strike. I now have 11 total fighters
in Pearl and I cannot load any in San Francisco. Also the nerf of locking in all forces except by
marching overland so you cannot switch some ground troops to another HQ so I can at least put up
a fight on the Andaman Is. I cannot load US/Dutch/UK troops even when i spend the PP which the
rules say I can do for (R)HQs. I remember the nerfs from WITP other two versions but the AI on
Normal appears to be fanatical about destroying Pearl utterly. I just bought this but will
switch back to the non-Admirals version so I can at least get a start at something. Other players,
please don't tell me how great your games were as that is immaterial. Really a big waste of 2
days of gaming (I have been computer gaming since the 1981).


EDIT: I went to where my old non-admiral version was and i see this OVERWROTE that program. That
is just swell. You think it would have a different file. Now I get to rummage thru old boxes in
the garage to find my hard copy. That is just swell. 2 days wasted and another one tomorrow.

Take with a grain of salt what I say but CVs pounding PH for several days is quite bizarre. I have never played against AI, though.



Still. It's not the game being "unplayable", it's that you make mistakes or have wrong expectations.

A) TBs & co in the Philippines/DEI. Your only torpedo platforms are Catalinas and Vildebeests. Now, Catalinas begin with terrible pilots in NavT (they're PA, after all) and Vildebeests' guys ain't better. It's already quite a lot you have been able to hit multiple targets. Moreover, what do you expected? To kill outright the whole IJN with few, outdated, poorly manned aircraft?
Moreover, you do not specify which are your tactical settings in order to achieve results. Are you diligent in night/day NavS? Are your assets properly placed in AFs with sufficient air support, sufficient dimension and torpedoes loaded in HQ TOE? Leaders? etcetc.
Even with very good pilots (the onest starting on CVs TBs groups) Catalinas aren't a mass destruction weapon. Vildebeests are just cannon fodder if you do not have good pilots (ad you don't).


B) You cannot load troops in (R). I do not know where it is stated you can, if so, please provide the reference to the manual because it can be a confusing thing for beginners. Anyway, only unrestricted HQs enable troop to be embarked. Please note that HQs with the notation (R) are "restricted but not permanently", meaning that the units are restricted but they can become unrestricted paying proper PPs. The two extremes are HQs which are [R] ("permanently restricted", such as West Coast HQ [R]) and the ones with nothing noted ("unrestricted", such as the Southern Command HQ for Japan or Pacific Fleet for Allies).
No surprise you cannot load stuff.
Please note also that airlift is possible even for restricted units provided their destination target is a base under their restricted command. An example are Philipino troops which can be airlifted from, say, Manila to Mindanao even if they're permanently restricted.


C) Since you game since 1981 and you do not want experience shared by others, I won't add that maybe reading around in the forum and better understanding game mechanics is the key to comprehend what's happening in your game. 99% of the times, and that's my humble random estimation, reported "bugs" or "things not working" come from a poor understanding of game mechanics or wrong expectations.



The game has many flaws we all know. Nonetheless, it's a masterpiece and most of the stuff around on the map work properly.


Last, but not least: is the AI making something wrong, finally? Isn't the AI instead making something quite cool instead? It's nailing your stuff in PH and you are horrified by that: it's playing in a smart way, even if generally WITP AE isn't smart at all.




Good luck in the Pacific War if you decide to continue![;)]

[obvert]

Well, it can happen. Not sure what the issue is though. Pearl is not supposed to be defendable at this stage. A better bet is to take anything still floating and flank out on day 2 to the SW and make for OZ.

In a PBEM I did set a day 2 strike at Pearl though and the Allies set up so well to strike back that I lost 3 CVs. That game is still going, with a complete AAR, now in Dec 45 if you're interested. (The Elephant Vanishes).

So it's not impossible, but it's unadvisable, to attempt a strike back at the KB outside Pearl. If he stays then send your CVs to the DEI and wreck havoc with security, knowing the KB is well behind you (and if your CAP was set well on days 2-4 he should have lost a bunch of good pilots and planes as well).

Playing the Allies though is about taking a tithe for the agony of 41-42, then getting some revenge in 43-45. It's a long game.

[HansBolter]

Clueless fools with no staying power and no inclination to overcome adversity don't deserve this game.

Good riddance.

p.s. Paragraph breaks are your friend.

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

Last, but not least: is the AI making something wrong, finally? Isn't the AI instead making something quite cool instead? It's nailing your stuff in PH and you are horrified by that: it's playing in a smart way, even if generally WITP AE isn't smart at all.

[X(][X(][X(]

[adarbrauner]

Every Japanese player must be double tripe careful when taking repetitive strikes at Pearl, it's very risky, and you've already nailed the oilers, I'd already be crying out, no oilers no more deep and prolonged KB sorties/operations....but this is AI, unable in any case to deep operations (cough, outside ironman Japan, cough)

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Clueless fools with no staying power and no inclination to overcome adversity don't deserve this game.

Good riddance.

p.s. Paragraph breaks are your friend.

Yeah, the OP is ranting about a situation that he doesn't understand, but I think the Good Riddance comment is overly harsh. He had expectations based on long wargame experience and that set him up for disillusionment with this extraordinarily complex game.

We should encourage patience and perseverance for the first few starts at a GC. I think I did four starts before I was satisfied that I had handled things well enough to continue the rest of the GC.

[battleground]

I see a few of you did not read my entire post or comprehend it... shame on you. You should read before you
criticize...May the Haggis be in your shorts... always.

The 1st issue was 4 consecutive game starts (I can start a game 20 times before I play seriously to test how
the system works). On all 4 games (3 campaign and 1 Pearl Harbor dance over). In all 4 games the Japanese
AI held their fleet off Pearl and pounded it for 3 days. Just hitting you once is bad for business in the
harbor but 3 times (and multiple) attacks lowers the island by about 40 meters. This is not a bad thing. This
is what I do when playing the Japanese in this or Pacific War or WITP original or for that matter in Uncommon
Valor and War in the South Pacific, the first monster game of the Pacific. But historically Nagumo pulled the
fleet out after his dance with the USN and went home. In the 4 games I played he punched the card twice more
for a couple other dances. I was struggling to find a reason for it unless the AI does not have a "just do it
and go home" in it but takes advantage and pounds the harbor to scrap. The AI is very aggressive (not a bad
thing) but hitting the island for 3 days AND after having the carrier TF engaged by a large cruiser/DD fleet
AND after having its AOs blown apart by another fleet. It did not care but kept attacking. Generally after 3
days (hell, after 1 day) the air units on Pearl are just about gone. On the 3rd day the most fighters I had
total was 14. There does not appear to be a 'Nagumo has a feeling' and just rolls the dice once. There is about
nothing the US player can do in the Pacific but wait for the Pearl fight be over.

I spent the 3 days Pearl was getting pounded and initated the Plan 'Get the hell out of Dodge City' and try and
get as many ships out of Japanese air range as fast as I can and head them for India or Australia. That worked fine
but I notice (and did in Pacific War and WITP part 1) that the UK/Dutch pilots cannot hit the side of a barn with
their nose glued to it. It just does not happen for the first couple weeks. I can however, hit is AP/AKs in about
5-6 days after moving what I can save in air to Balikpapan and fort up there. I have seriously hurt the Japanese
support fleet this way. In this version even if I use PP to assign a Dutch unit to ABDA so I can at least move it
to another port. I believe in the rules it had 3 options. 1-Restricted (nobody comes home alive) 2-within an R HQ
you can spend PP but of course the Allied player has very little to spend and big ground units cost ALOT and 3-your
free to run as fast as you can. I can, of course, have units walk from one end of Java and Borneo by foot but it
makes it strange you cannot move ANBODY even when you ships and ground units are under the same command (Dutch or
ABDA) with all the 'coastal shipping' now in the game.

The one thing that set me off was when I got off WITP-AE was when I thought I could go back and run AITP-NOT AE but
found the installer had copied the new game OVER the other one. They are NOT the same game. They are cousins. Why
destroy one game with all my work put into it? What reason not to give WITP-AE its own file name? Thats when I pulled
WITP-AE off my computer so I can load WITP-NOT AE back in and move it to a safe place where its cousin does not try
and sneak in to kill it. I hate waste, especially waste of time.

Now for you knuckleheads with the condescending comments I hope a camel barfs in your socks. There was no reason to
be so snippy. I know their are always fanboys who will protect a company at all costs. I was banned from Paradox for
2 years fighting to make HOI-IV better when it was being designed. I helped some modders with suggestions or their
mods.

Now I am rummaging around boxes here and in my garage looking for the WITP-NOT AE to reinstall THEN I will reinstall
WITP-AE and continue my learning more about the game. I try and be nice to other posters. I said I played comp games
since 1981 but started with AH Civil War in 1961. I probably was playing DNO/UNT and even the entire SPI War in the
Pacific AND War in Europe combined on one huge metal wall plate with a thousand counter magnets before some of you
ever sipped on a baby bottle. Therefore I fart in your general direction.....

[demyansk]

I bought the game and haven't even started a game ---- ouch, might never play the game[:)]

[CaptBeefheart]

Which scenario are you playing? I don't think I've seen the AI do more than one day of Pearl attacks. PBEM, on the other hand...

One possible workaround is to set "non-historic first turn." Set all of your fighters at Pearl to 100% zero-range CAP at different altitudes. That'll cause some pain for the Imperialists.

In the DEI, I have zero expectations to stop anything. That said, I'll put some Dutch bombers on 100 ft Naval attacks and they'll land a few bombs on different ships. It seems even low exp/low skill pilots, of which you have plenty in the beginning, can hit things from 100 feet. Catalinas will occasionally put torps into ships as well.

Cheers,
CB

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: battleground

I see a few of you did not read my entire post or comprehend it...

So, the AI has a number of variants for Scen 1 (GC). The AI variant is chosen when the scenario is selected and saved as part of the save game. The variant that sticks around is in I think only 3 of the 11, so about a 15% chance this will happen.

If you restart a saved game, the results will play out pretty much the same every time. If you start a new scenario, you have a chance to get a different AI variant each time.

From what you wrote, it appears you started the same save game. If you did restart the scenario each time, you have incredible luck.

I'll not respond to your taunts except to say they won't get you too far in this forum. I would encourage you to tone it down a little if you really want help. Else, everyone will green button you and that will be it.

[Anachro]

Yes, I was gonna ask that Pax. Is he replaying a save 4 times or did he start a new campaign four times? That's the question given the limitation of the scripts and how the variations are chosen.

[battleground]

Oh dear. I thought I was being nice using just a feather duster on rude people. Thank you for your input. Gaming should
be fun and camaraderie building. I am not arrogant just a very experienced gamer. And I reran the scenario from the beginning
checking the options to look for anything screwy so I must be wildly lucky to have a rock land on my head 4 times. If you read
I am not insulting the game but circumstances that occurred in this one. As I said I may play a game 20 times for weeks to get
the mechanics in my head properly. If you read my post you would see what I was REALLY mad about was War in the Pacific-Admirals
Edition killing my War in the Pacific-Not Admirals Edition. I had many saved games and campaigns there that are gone. I am in
the process of reloading War in the Pacific-Not Admirals Edition now. I don't like condescending people or fanboys who rush to
judgement on a person. I did not attack anyone in any evil and insidious way but when shot at I shoot back strangely. Folks take
a complaint about the game personally and are darn snotty. I do not have to accept that quietly. Just because I only have 90 posts
on Matrix I am not a novice. Its because I have few problems with the games here. I started playing Gary's games like War in the
South Pacific on my Apple IIc. I may have 4200 posts on Paradox forum on HOI3/4 as Plasticpanzers even being banned for 2 years
arguing with them about HOIV creation (and I was right). The Pearl Harbor event in some mods in HOI3 was my idea. US BBs are sunk
as historically (even if you hide them in Connecticut) and are available in about 1944. That changes the entire Pacific strategic
war for the US in the Pacific in 1941. I also produced 1/6th scale armored vehicle kits for a number of years under the same name.
I am experienced in history and WWII and thats not being uppity, it just is. If you assume people who post here rarely are somehow
ignorant or taunting (you obviously don't watch Monty Python) you did not bother to find out first yourself just as they did not.
Hard to keep or gains ones respect that way. Try as they should have with a PM first.

[Kull]

My very first Green Button. Congratulations!

[battleground]

my bad, removed for universal peace and tranquility.

[RogerJNeilson]

Respectfully the issue of your original AE being overwritten by AE Admirals is almost entirely due to a combination of Windows and you not selecting a different directory when you did the install. Every discrete game against opponents I do a new install to a different directory to avoid any of this. Leaving aside your complaint on the 'park outside PH' the main problem occurred in the interface between the computer and the chair.......

I am not sure you will get too far with this game if you get hung up on the first few days..... frankly whether or not PH is trashed its a waiting game for a year or so before you get to dish out the retribution on the Empire. Every game has limitations on its coverage of stuff.

I 'get' your frustration - I have the same with another game I have just purchased where there is no, repeat no support at all - arriving here with the attitude your post has is going to attract some flak from those who have been here a long time and have invested thousands of hours in this beauty.

Roger

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

Respectfully the issue of your original AE being overwritten by AE Admirals is almost entirely due to a combination of Windows and you not selecting a different directory when you did the install. Every discrete game against opponents I do a new install to a different directory to avoid any of this. Leaving aside your complaint on the 'park outside PH' the main problem occurred in the interface between the computer and the chair.......

I am not sure you will get too far with this game if you get hung up on the first few days..... frankly whether or not PH is trashed its a waiting game for a year or so before you get to dish out the retribution on the Empire. Every game has limitations on its coverage of stuff.

I 'get' your frustration - I have the same with another game I have just purchased where there is no, repeat no support at all - arriving here with the attitude your post has is going to attract some flak from those who have been here a long time and have invested thousands of hours in this beauty.

Roger

+1

...from those who have been here a long time...

...and they have helped many, many people.