[WAD] civilian contacts flagged as hostile : why ?

[davidoux]

Hello,

I am trying to use Air intercept / strike mission with the pre-planned ("targets in target list only")
but it seems that every civilian contact is instant flagged as hostile now, not sure if it is because
of that particular mission ?

What is the difference between air intercept and patrol and which one should i use ? my objective
is to target designated HVT with stealth f35

[SeaQueen]

Under the side menu in the editor, there's a box for "Use collective responsibility" or something like that. Is that checked?

[davidoux]

i didnt even know there was an editor, since I am "playing" a scenario how am I supposed to edit the scenario ?
sorry if it is a dumb question,

[thewood1]

It almost impossible to give an answer without a save or scenario file. Any number of things can cause them to be labelled hostile.

[davidoux]

Here is the save file,

notice also that whenever I change the contact status, if I save then load the contact status comes back to hostile
( I posted in the tech support) I don't know if it is normal,

also something which looks wrong, after pressing O, locate all civilian and change them to "neutral"
(there are 6 contacts to change otherwise you will loose instantly as my fighters will shoot them)

after that has been done,th f35 "ADIR-2" will be locked and circling around the Cessna 500 citation
altought he is assigned to a intercept mission on HVT, the workaround i found is to "disengage him"

To summarize up several odd behaviour :
1. contact status when changed manually is not serialized in the save game
2. Civilian contacts are flagged as hostile and i dont know why, my workaround i to change manually the status but 1. makes it unpractical if i need to save
and load the game later
3. After changing the contact to neutral, fighters already engaged with these contact (ADIR2 in this save) will circle around it and never disengage unless instructed manually

[thewood1]

Did you build the missions yourself or were they already part of the scenario? I think it has something to do with how the missions are constructed. It might hinge on ROE and what kicks off the intercept mission. I haven't looked in any more detail than that.

I also noted that the civilian side has collective responsibility. This is a common mistake with even experience scenario builders. Civilians shouldn't be simulated as a collective side. Otherwise, if one mistake happens, all civilians become hostile. No one will like that outcome.

[davidoux]

I built the missions myself and this is a tutorial mission,

Flight Tutorial 8 - AAW 6 CoW - Advanced Combat

So you think this tutorial mission is incorrectly done ?

[thewood1]

I think the settings for your intercept missions are not quite right. Just a guess.

[Rory Noonan]

Setting a unit as a target of an intercept mission is the same as assigning an auto-attack against it (technically an intercept mission is just a strike mission in the air).

In your save you have one of the neutral aircraft assigned as a target of a mission along with some hostile MiGs.

The reason the whole 'Neutral' side is now considered hostile is due to the setting 'collective responsibility' on the Neutral side. That means that if you attack one, you consider them all hostile.

[thewood1]

Thats what I suspected. One of the missions had the activation set for "unknown" to activate. That means it will make ANY aircraft as a target. I still think the civilians shouldn't have collective responsibility.

[Rory Noonan]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Thats what I suspected. One of the missions had the activation set for "unknown" to activate. That means it will make ANY aircraft as a target. I still think the civilians shouldn't have collective responsibility.

I just want to clarify that it's the specific designation of a target for the mission in the 'Target List' pane of the mission editor that will make otherwise neutral contacts be treated as hostile.

If no target is designated and 'Unknown' is selected for the mission trigger, the assigned aircraft should launch and close with unknown contacts and--with WRA set to tight--ID them before engaging. If they turn out to be neutral the assigned AC will RTB (or go check another contact), if they're Unfriendly the assigned AC will trail but not open fire.

[davidoux]

thanks, that makes sense i indeed assigned a civilian !

whenever i remove it for the list, it will remember it and flag all future civilian as hostiles, so i gues i have no other option than restart .... a reset collective status would be useful, thought ....

[guanotwozero]

This brings up a potential inconsistency; if a civilian flies into a patrol area, fighters will autonomously investigate to make an ID. They only need to fly close enough for the sensors to do that.

Conversely if there is no such patrol area (or target is outside it), there is no way to investigate other than setting an intercept course by estimating "close enough". Might it be worth adding an "investigate" action, so that an aircraft will fly just close enough to make the ID (with current EMCON)? Thereafter it returns to its prior mission/posture.

Edit:
I'll put in a request.

[thewood1]

ORIGINAL: apache85

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Thats what I suspected. One of the missions had the activation set for "unknown" to activate. That means it will make ANY aircraft as a target. I still think the civilians shouldn't have collective responsibility.

I just want to clarify that it's the specific designation of a target for the mission in the 'Target List' pane of the mission editor that will make otherwise neutral contacts be treated as hostile.

If no target is designated and 'Unknown' is selected for the mission trigger, the assigned aircraft should launch and close with unknown contacts and--with WRA set to tight--ID them before engaging. If they turn out to be neutral the assigned AC will RTB (or go check another contact), if they're Unfriendly the assigned AC will trail but not open fire.

Never knew that. I have always made sure to not use unknown because of concern for fragging a civilian.

[LMychajluk]

I never knew the Aircraft on an Intercept mission would move on to another target once the first was ID'd as Neutral/Friendly, or that they would shadow Unfriendly aircraft. I did know the Unknown thing, though.

[mavfin]

ORIGINAL: LMychajluk

I never knew the Aircraft on an Intercept mission would move on to another target once the first was ID'd as Neutral/Friendly, or that they would shadow Unfriendly aircraft. I did know the Unknown thing, though.

I have used intercept missions to ID unknown bogies, and then decide to shoot or not, but you have to watch the mission settings closely for it to work; i.e. only fire if identified hostile. Then, I've seen a pair of fighters ID two or three neutrals, and then find the hostile one and shoot it down.