What the heck????

[battleground]

yeah.... I uninstalled WITP-AE then found my disc of WITP-NOT Admiral. I then reinstalled WITP-NOT Admiral then
changed the name of the file to Pacific War II then reinstalled WITP-AE. Now I have both games running. The WITP-AE
overwrote the WITP-NOT Admiral and wiped all my save games for years. That was why I was upset. Years of playing
gone. Now the two games are NOT the same. They should not both be in the same download to the same file. WITP-AE
should have downloaded into a new file with a new name and NOT just overwrite WITP-NOT Admiral. As I said they are
NOT the same game and should not be in the same file. I should not have to figure out they would not be.

Now I checked between the keyboard and my chair and it is working fine. I ran another test (all my games so far are
test and training games) and lo and behold the IJN sat off PH from the 7th thru the 9th. The only reason this time
they did not do worse is because I neglected to have the Indianapolis TF veer off and the IJN spend most of one day
eliminating the entire TF... My bad, but this was not a real game but a test of the game. So when I forgot to have
the Enterprise TF veer off the IJN moved NW and crushed it. My bad, but this was not a real game but a test of the
game. With a fresh download it is now 5 of 5 for 3 day attacks on Pearl. Put an X with a marker on a piece of
bread and keep flipping it and see how many times the X comes up compared to the unmarked side (low tech computing).
I blew thru the days just to watch the PH battle.

There appears to be no 'Nagumo has the sweats' factor so the IJN comes, throws a party on the 7th, and goes home but
instead sets up a carnival and turns the US Pac Fleet into scrap for 3 days. In my post I said a 3 day attack is
not bad, I would do it and have playing both the US and IJN hovered for days pounding a helpless opponent. Good AI
to keep attacking. 5 out of 5 times is reason for concern. Of course I could just blame Win-7. I wonder how many
folks actually play as the US being playing Japan is so fun with all the bells and whistles. I love playing the US
but the same outcome 5 times in a row?

My comment on the Malaya air attacks is the same as always. Multiple daylight attacks by the Brits from Singapore
against the invasion fleet and about 11 times in 3 days I get planes thru (or actually the AI did). Not one hit. I
have never had the UK do any damage to that fleet at the beginning. Not a PC, nor an AK hit and certainly not a
hit on a naval vessel.

On ground units it does say that for R restricted HQ you have to pay PP to reassign them (or it is worded badly) to
a non-restricted HQ to move them by boat. No go. On 3 different islands I spend all the Political Points for 3
different units of different sizes and no go. The Dutch are doomed to die... unless they can walk across water.
All those paddle-wheel (and yes there were) coastal ships just take their chances when I get out of Dodge move them
to India or Australia (closest)to save them.

Now I finish the report of my followup to my first post to explain what was happening. The loss of YEARS of saved
games from WITP-NOT Admiral is what upset me greatly. The PH was just a report on what I thought was something wrong.
My comments about the Malaya UK air was true of the original WITP-NOT Admiral and WITP-AE. The UK does doodie to the
IJN other than provide training for their air units and hours of laughter for their fleet.

[Anachro]

I'm really not sure how they can install to the same location given that the default Witp AE install folder is called "War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition." Are you telling me that the original game, the one without the AE moniker, also installs to a folder called War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition. I'll take your word for it, but it does seem strange to me. That said, I have never played or installed the original WitP. I seriously doubt that saves for the original WitP would be in the same file location since the saves for WitP AE are stored in the game folder (the one with the AE moniker) and not in a third location. But this is all speculation on my part.

I'm not sure what to say about your experience with the AI at Pearl, since I've had many variations of the first few turns run, both including what you describe and not including it. Also, regarding Malaya, even if bombers get through, there are multiple factors affecting their ability to hit enemy ships. If they were chewed up by CAP along the way, their accuracy is greatly reduced. If they have low naval bombing skill, their accuracy is greatly reduced, if the enemy ships are faster, their accuracy is greatly reduced. If you are attempting to hit ships with levels bombers...their accuracy is greatly reduced. That said, I have had great success hitting ships with British bombers in the early days of '42 off of Malaya, particularly if you make use of your TB's and DBs like the Vildebeests. Trust me, those Vildebeests can do a lot of damage to enemy transports, especially if there's no enemy CAP. I'm really not seeing your problem.

Some units are static in their HQs and cannot be moved. Other's can be bought out.

[Ian R]

Don't bother feeding the troll.

[Barb]

Battleground - please, calm down a little, take a breath...

AI punishing Pearl Harbor - as said out of 11 AI Scripts being picked up at the start of the scenario (first time opening, not first End Turn) about 3 will result in the KB hanging around longer then 1 day. Try Starting a fresh scenario (not Load saved one).

Malaya air attacks - need to know exact details, but with old aircraft crewed by weak/medi-core pilots you are not going to hit anything. Train your pilots, protect the bombers by escorts, try bombing @2000ft, even those Vildebeest won't hit much with torpedoes, but might do better with bombs. The hit rolls are pretty complicated from Weather, Naval Skill of squadron leader, NavB/NavT skill of pilots, pilot fatigue, pilot morale, flak, evading target, damage to the plane making run, altitude, accuracy of the bombs/torpedoes, nothing to say about the Nate/Oscar/Zero that just massacred 3/4 of your buddies on the way in and are hot on your tail is really adding to the pilot concentration to aim precisely...

Restricted units - You are overall commander with some political responsibilities to multiple national governments and interests. Dutch wont just run from their only remaining territory, nor Philippine Army wont load ships for 4 year vacation in Australia! They are there to defend their "homeland" to the last drop of their blood. You can do "SirRobin" with every ship, plenty of air units and some ground units even without spending PPs on them just to deny Japanese few victory points, but keep in mind you are making it to Japanese much easier to conquer what they do need most.
For freeing units to be able to load to ships, pick HQs that are not restricted (do not have (R) in any form) - there is aplenty of them.

WITP:AE installation folder - I do believe it can be altered in the initial setup, I actually have two installations side by side and many players here have several more (to allow variations in betas/mods/arts).
Also if you bought "old" WITP then you should also have a digital download available on the matrixgames site.

[HansBolter]

The Dutch are doomed, but they CAN walk across water.

It's called AIR TRANSPORT. They have loads of flying boats that can shuttle their restricted units between their own bases.

As for the impotence of the British air force, Barb provides a detailed response. Try looking at the experience and skill levels of your pilots. They can't be expected to hit much of anything until you train them. The Allies aren't supposed to be able to stop the Japanese juggernaut in the beginning.

Asking for help in understanding the whys and hows will get far better results than RANTING against the OBVIOUS STUPIDITY of something that isn't stupid and you don't understand.

Once again, I'll make the obvious statement that paragraph breaks are your friend.

I haven't bothered to read half of your run on rants due to the text density.

[fcooke]

+1

Concentrate the Dutch as much as you can. Actually concentrate everything as much as you can. Rest/train everything as much as you can. The DEI can be painful for the IJN but the fatigue/exp levels of the Allies out there in the first few days is horrific. I tend to use the B-17s for NS and every flying boat as transport. Hide the fighters until they are well rested and concentrate them when/where you think you can really hurt an airstrike. Look for little invasions and use concentrated Allied naval forces to pounce. Little victories. RN has good exp - use it against weaker forces. You are not constricted to real life stand and die policies in the game for the most part.

As for bad performance of Brit air out of Singers, I think in real life they managed to sink one transport. They fought valiantly, but the odds were stacked against them. And as mentioned before, just because you managed to attack does not mean you will get a hit. The hits on Bismarck were incredibly lucky because she was designed to defend against faster planes. The 'Channel Dash' was successful right next to the UK (except for those mines at the end).

This is generally a very polite forum. Continued rants will not work in your best interests if you want to play the game.

Regards,
Frank

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

The Dutch are doomed, but they CAN walk across water.

It's called AIR TRANSPORT. They have loads of flying boats that can shuttle their restricted units between their own bases.

As for the impotence of the British air force, Barb provides a detailed response. Try looking at the experience and skill levels of your pilots. They can't be expected to hit much of anything until you train them. The Allies aren't supposed to be able to stop the Japanese juggernaut in the beginning.

Asking for help in understanding the whys and hows will get far better results than RANTING against the OBVIOUS STUPIDITY of something that isn't stupid and you don't understand.

Once again, I'll make the obvious statement that paragraph breaks are your friend.

I haven't bothered to read half of your run on rants due to the text density.

+1

And the repetition. He doesn't want help, just attention.

[Dili]

I don't understand how can a game is installed on top of another unless you gave the same directory.


PS: there is something called backups that you should do often.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Dili

I don't understand how can a game is installed on top of another unless you gave the same directory.

I know, when I've installed WITP-AE the default folder name was always different than the default folder name for WITP, including less than 2 weeks ago, BTW. When I read that I figured he just made a mistake.

[Trugrit]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Dili

I don't understand how can a game is installed on top of another unless you gave the same directory.

I know, when I've installed WITP-AE the default folder name was always different than the default folder name for WITP, including less than 2 weeks ago, BTW. When I read that I figured he just made a mistake.

Yes, maybe just a mistake he made.

I’ve been following this thread with some interest.

I have an interest not just in the game but in the history of the game as well.
Actually I’m interested in the history of all computer games.

It occurred to me that, back in the day, if installing WITP-AE was overwriting
WITP and all the WITP game saves there would have been one hell of a stink.

After all, there were PBEM games and AAR’s up and running and if any of them,
or even one of them, were wiped out I’m sure Matrix was going to hear about it.

The forum for WITP is still available on this site.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=10
It can be searched.

There are some familiar names there. Mike Solli, Barb, Kull, witpqs, HansBolter,
Roger Neilson II, crsutton, Canoerebel, John 3rd, Alfred and others.
They have left their tracks in the sand.

Back then there was a transition of players from WITP to WITP-AE.

You have to go back to around December of 2009 when the transition was taking place
to find players who had both War in the Pacific and War in the Pacific Admiral’s Edition
Running at the same time. It was fun to look. There are some.

Feinder:
fb.asp?m=2333301

Misconduct:
fb.asp?m=2307045

Oldguard1970:
fb.asp?m=2307683

jomni:
fb.asp?m=2332898

There was no concern back then that I can find.

So, did Matrix decide years later to wipe WITP off players computers and replace it with WITP-AE?
I’ve searched for this but I can not find any other player this has happened to.
I say this did not happen.

Did Bill Gates play a hand. Did Windows 10 decide to wipe out the program.
Turns out that can happen.
https://www.howtogeek.com/243581/window ... ut-asking/

Once again I can’t find any other player who says Windows 10 wiped out the WITP or
WITP-AE programs and saves.

So if this did happen I don’t think WITP-AE is to blame.
There is a Windows restore program so you don’t have to search your garage.

As for the AI mercilessly attacking Pearl Harbor?

If that runs you completely out of this game then on the He-Man Testosterone war gamer
scale that puts you a notch below Granny Clampett.

[rockmedic109]

If the AI keeps attacking PH it will leave the core of good pilots that the IJN starts with drained. As the allied leader, I'd say keep attacking. The allies replace all their losses and still swim in a sea of supplies, ships, planes and fuel. A 1:2 initial loss ratio is a win for the allies....at least for the Americans.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Kull

My very first Green Button. Congratulations!

Really - just the first?

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Kull

My very first Green Button. Congratulations!

Really - just the first?

It's a testament to the good behavior of the vast majority of people are on this forum. Even those who can be a bit prickly usually have something worthwhile to add.

Edit: LOL at the forum-driven asterisks. Think, "cactus-like". [:D]

[NigelKentarus]

As many times that I have restarted, only once did KB stick around and hit PH for a 2nd day. A few times it did nail Lihue on the 2nd day as it was withdrawing. Luck of the draw. If I played as IJN, I would most likely attack PH a 2nd day. IMO.

[battleground]

Splendid responses ... some of you make me feel like I am back home over in warm embrace of Paradox forums again.

New test game today. Thought maybe I was not going far enough. Played thru the 12th of December. The IJN
did not attack PH for 3 days.. it attacked for 5 and managed to swat the Rigel which was trying to sneak back
to Pearl on the 12th. They appear gone. Repeated attacks on the harbor have left 4 BBs burning and the rest
sitting in the mud.. Do these get a chance at rebirth later on like they did for real? I mean if your on fire
above and full of water below and sitting on the bottom but in 1944 your pounding the IJN back there must be a
resurrection for at least 1 of those sunk. The only reason they did not finish destroying all the CAs and CLs
burning in the harbor is because I sacrificed all the little bitty ships in single or double ship TFs on or NW
of Pearl to soak up attacks. All my remaining DDs and major support/logistical ships sortied and bugged out
to the South. The PTs showed up and I threw them out at the IJN in case they were still there and sent the last
6 damaged DDs that could move at any speed along with them. Sadly the Elvis had left the room...

I had the US CVs wandering around SW of Pearl at a healthy distance. They are now on their way in. They, I estimate,
would have done doodah to the IJN that my reports still show IJN 89 ftrs and 200 plus bombers. The 3 TFs of refugees I
had run like hell S. from Pearl are now wandering back in. Thank goodness the IJN is gone because some are starving
for fuel. Where is the 'FOLLOW' command so I can get TF to meet up. There seems to be only destination and home base
choices. Since TFs move at different speeds how can you get them to end up at the beginning of a turn to change or
supply ships without having to meet in a harbor base? Thought that was in original WITP (I will look later).

Had running AKs from Hong Kong engaging in surface combat with Japaneses AKs going E and W. Like 2 opponents slapping
each other with handkerchiefs as they pass. A UK Walrus from HK managed to hit one IJN AK with an itty bitty bomb.
Everybody else in the UK airforce has bugged out to Tavoy or Rangoon (that can)and hit NO ships in air attacks. Wake
Island does more damage to the IJN than all UK air units in Malaysia.

For those who are interested. Win 7, Historical, 15+/- variation, .5 to 1 messages. The rest is Historical on the full
campaign from Dec 7. I imagine the setup would not have any effect on the AI. This after 1 install and delete and a
2nd install with the same scenario chosen. And yes it did overwrite my WITP-NOT Admiral and all of my years of saved
games. If I has not happened to you then you are luckier than I (unless we all blame it on Win 7).

1) Japan for 6 times now has blitzed PH for 3-5 days (I think perhaps again I ending the earlier 5 too soon as they may
have gone for 5 days too. The Japanese ran out of metal to blow around the harbor or got bored.

2) You can sucker the IJN around PH with multiple TF of 1-2 useless (except to their captains) ships to draw off the CV
attacks onto them (or I would not have a single ship in Pearl, burning or not). It is an expensive and odd way to soak
up the IJN attacks. I guess there may not be a 'Nagumo has a vision' in the AI and just slaps PH once and leaves. What
happened in these games would have made the movie TORA, TORA, TORA a miniseries rather than a movie. You can fool the
AI this way which is expensive and odd.

If you say the AI is tough and that is good - bully for you. The only thing is that it is now predictable and you can counter
the effect by spending little ships til they get bored and leave. I could have split up my DDs to soak up more if I had tried.
Not quite historical if 6 out of 6 times the IJN moves in and sets up camp for the working week. The end result I am down a
couple dozen little ships and still have half the BBs and all the CAs and CLs tho battered.. and that after 5 days of attacks.
After 5 days of attacks also there are virtually no fighters left to fly. And of bombers strangely the B-10s have a better
survival rate on the ground than any other airplane except for the P-26 which also lives a charmed life being parked.

Funny thing is that I like the game and the detail. What is happening tho is not funny tho. Lucky I have reinstalled the
original WITP-NOT Admiral where it is safe now but with no surviving save games. I would have to start all over.

[battleground]

ORIGINAL: CaptBeefheart

Which scenario are you playing? I don't think I've seen the AI do more than one day of Pearl attacks. PBEM, on the other hand...

One possible workaround is to set "non-historic first turn." Set all of your fighters at Pearl to 100% zero-range CAP at different altitudes. That'll cause some pain for the Imperialists.

In the DEI, I have zero expectations to stop anything. That said, I'll put some Dutch bombers on 100 ft Naval attacks and they'll land a few bombs on different ships. It seems even low exp/low skill pilots, of which you have plenty in the beginning, can hit things from 100 feet. Catalinas will occasionally put torps into ships as well.

Cheers,
CB

You cannot set the US aircraft nor move ships on the Dec 7th turn til the Japanese have finished all their attacks in the Pacific. You then get to play with what is left. The 7 Dec game does not allow the Allied player the ability to do that.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: battleground

ORIGINAL: CaptBeefheart

Which scenario are you playing? I don't think I've seen the AI do more than one day of Pearl attacks. PBEM, on the other hand...

One possible workaround is to set "non-historic first turn." Set all of your fighters at Pearl to 100% zero-range CAP at different altitudes. That'll cause some pain for the Imperialists.

In the DEI, I have zero expectations to stop anything. That said, I'll put some Dutch bombers on 100 ft Naval attacks and they'll land a few bombs on different ships. It seems even low exp/low skill pilots, of which you have plenty in the beginning, can hit things from 100 feet. Catalinas will occasionally put torps into ships as well.

Cheers,
CB

You cannot set the US aircraft nor move ships on the Dec 7th turn til the Japanese have finished all their attacks in the Pacific. You then get to play with what is left. The 7 Dec game does not allow the Allied player the ability to do that.

This is only true of playing with 'surprise' on. With 'surprise' off the Allies have a first turn orders phase.

In response to your long winded rant in the post prior to this one, some one above pointed out that there are 11 separate scripts with only three of them programmed to have the KB remain at Pearl for multiple days. Either you are replaying the same game over and over again with the script already set (the script for the entire game is randomly chosen at game start), or you have simply had unlucky die rolls (read computer randomizers) with one of the three possible 'remain at Pearl' scripts being chosen each time.

Yes, there are commands for both meeting and following that can be given to Task Forces. Setting Threat Tolerance is also very important. Setting Waypoints and Patrol Patterns is also possible, both of which are functions not in the original WiTP. All of these functions appear on the 'second page' of the TF interface. Look just below the location where you set a destination on the first page for access to the second page of the TF interface. Can't remember the name of this function.

Many interfaces have multiple pages. Yellow text is interactive. You need to experiment with all yellow text in the game to see what options it links you to. This is beyond a shadow of doubt the greatest game ever made. It has the most immense data base of any game ever made with the most flexibility and depth of control of any game ever made. You can't begin to hope to master it over night.

I started with this game engine playing the original DOS based game Pacific War, moved on to the small campaign game Uncommon Valor which depicted the Coral Sea campaign and had the same interface as War in the Pacific. After playing UV for several years, and being active on the UV forum, I moved on to WiTP, playing that for several years before AE was released.

Many of us vets have tens of thousands of game turns under our belts. It takes thousands of game turns to even begin to get a real handle on this monster, let alone coming close to mastering it.

[BBfanboy]

The TF screen text that allows you to set threat tolerance, waypoints and patrol zones is the "Routing Instructions" text.

[Anachro]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: battleground

You cannot set the US aircraft nor move ships on the Dec 7th turn til the Japanese have finished all their attacks in the Pacific. You then get to play with what is left. The 7 Dec game does not allow the Allied player the ability to do that.

This is only true of playing with 'surprise' on. With 'surprise' off the Allies have a first turn orders phase.

Actually, Allies can put in Dec 7th orders regardless of "surprise" being on or off. It's the "Historical First Turn" option you want turned to "off" in order for Allies to implement new orders on Dec 7th. Surprise affects things like effectiveness of initial CAP settings for the Allies and more in the morning phase of combat. It does more than that, but I don't really remember off the top of my head.

[battleground]

To the folks who think I am fighting the same game over and over.... ah...no. And in response
to the stuffy reply (stop snapping your suspenders and put the pipe down)


On the initial download from Matrix I played 4 games in sequence, not saved games but new games.
Since the Apple IIc I have learned how to hit the right key. A new game every time. And it did
wipe the original WITP off when the initial setup occurred. I did not hit 'load save game' over
and over as the simple fact that on the first impulse the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor on Dec 7
and repeating it in my games would be 'Groundhog Day'..

As to your comment

Game was uninstalled and files cleared so I could re-install the original WITP then move it to
another file (Pacific War II). Then WITP-AE was reinstalled and started. I know you can change
the initial day but how am I supposed to test the game if I change the important parameter that
runs the scenario?

I see that it is mentioned that the outcome I report would be only a variable of the AI attacking
PH and that the odds were kinda poor to do it over again. I have rolled a 6 on the dice 6 times
now... I should be playing Yahtzee with rolls like that.

Yes its a beautiful game. Gary has done wonders all the way back to his SSI release of 'War in the
South Pacific' which is the grand-dad of all these later games. You can tho have problems. While
playing 'War in the South Pacific' I had 3 Japanese I-boat submarines suddenly appear and fly off
the Japanese carrier Shokaku in one campaign to attack a US TF. They dive bombed (I can't remember
if they used bombs or torpedos as bombs. A US ship shot one down. I would be unsure how the guncrew
would mark that kill... a freaking big ring painted on the barrel, a plane kill, or a sub kill....
or all 3 and some aspirin.

I know of the threat tolerance of which you speak. Thank you on waypoints. Its a bit like AURORA 4X
which is more than a little detail intensive as well. I do not intend to master it overnight. I run
many dozens of test games starting at a certain point and then restarting it to look at variations the
AI uses if any. For HOI-3 Mods I may play 40 scenarios of the 1936 campaign as Germany to 1941 prior
to Russia and the US from 1936 to Tunis. This is where I developed the idea of including a Pearl Harbor
strike other than just an event that did nothing. In a couple mods it changes the entire step off of
the Pacific War for the US.

Thanks for the input. Much appreciated. Having come in from the deep of Paradox forums can make you a
bit twitchy in the head so I apologize for the 'rant' (but not the jokes and sarcasm.. those are fun).
Communicating by forum is one of the most sterile forms of interaction. The tones and inflections of
a verbal chat is always lost or mistaken and can lead to friction. I don't intend to really play an
actual campaign of WITP-AE until I have test driven it enough to know the way it handles. If I do seem
to 'talk alot' I have alot of thoughts to express other than "yes, no, I don't know, where is the restroom......"