Question about Italian army

[exsonic01]

I wish to make a scenario of 1991 ITA vs USSR in Germany, name would be "Operation Little Saturn again" [;)]

But I'm curious, would it be reasonable to imagine any situation of any Italian formation operating in Germany with other NATO nations, as an expedition force under the command of CENTAG or NORTHAG?

I know cold war Italy amry was under LANDSOUTH command with their own OP. And I think it would be really unlikely to happen such situation. But, I'm just trying to imagine any possibility or wish to know if there were any operational plan of such "expedition force" for Italy during cold war. Maybe, just a maybe, Paratroopers or Marines + small armor detachment with artillery? Or entire 1~2 brigades? Again, I think it is very unlikely, just for fun for the game [:D]

[Hub6Actual]

That is a real poser. All I can think of would be a small contingent got stuck in Germany while on a joint training exercise with other NATO countries when the war starts unexpectedly. One would have to assume that tensions between Italy and Yugoslavia had not eased, as they eventually did historically. The Italians would be pre-occupied with their northeastern border in that case. Switzerland and Austria would be neutral, so no moving heavy equipment and troops through or over their territory. France, being outside of the NATO command structure, would be a question mark as to how they might react to requests for Italian troop moves through their borders. Not to mention that would be going “the long way around” to get to where they would do the most good. Trying to get a large mass of troops and equipment through the Alps in a hurry would be a sore trial from a logistical standpoint, even if allowed to cross borders...

So, just make something fun up and run with it. [:)]

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: Hub6Actual
That is a real poser. All I can think of would be a small contingent got stuck in Germany while on a joint training exercise with other NATO countries when the war starts unexpectedly. One would have to assume that tensions between Italy and Yugoslavia had not eased, as they eventually did historically. The Italians would be pre-occupied with their northeastern border in that case. Switzerland and Austria would be neutral, so no moving heavy equipment and troops through or over their territory. France, being outside of the NATO command structure, would be a question mark as to how they might react to requests for Italian troop moves through their borders. Not to mention that would be going “the long way around” to get to where they would do the most good. Trying to get a large mass of troops and equipment through the Alps in a hurry would be a sore trial from a logistical standpoint, even if allowed to cross borders...

So, just make something fun up and run with it. [:)]

Thank you so much! That is really a good idea!

[exsonic01]

Check this process. This is totally hypothetical history line.

1) Early 88, Yugo government harshly suppressed independent movement of several ethnic groups, worrying such independence mood would bring dissolution of Yugo and would negatively influence on Eastern Bloc.
2) Immediately after the incident, NATO condemned Yugo. Italy published official statement blaming Yugo's policy and raised human rights concern. Italy welcomed refugees and accepted political defection from Yugo.
3) Italy - Yugo relation deteriorates dramatically.
4) Late 88 ~ early 89, Soviet + Yugo + Hungary + Romania army conducted field exercise near Italy-Yugo border. Though Yugo officially & strongly denied the possibility of membership inside Warsaw Pact, USSR exploited this event to hug Yugo into their influence.
5) Mid 89, Italy conducted joint exercise with NATO within Italy border. Exercise Italic Weld officially resurrected for the first time since 1953.
6) Jan 90, to enhance their armored / combined arms readiness, Italy decided to join their forces to Reforger 90 via France. France conditionally allowed the movement of Italy forces and logistics through France, though the 'conditions' were never opened to public. Italy expedition group stays in southern Germany, continuously participated in joint exercise with FRG and UK forces.
7) May 90, Soviet + Yugo + Hungary + Romania conducted massive scale maneuvering operation near Trieste and entire Italy - Yugo border line. This time they included 1st echelon weapons and formations. Things getting serious, and NATO alarmed by this exercise, increased amount and preparedness and readiness of NATO troops inside Italy. PACT performed additional exercises around Italy - Yugo border.
8) However, that operation was a fake attempt to draw NATO's full attention to North Italy plain - Jan 91, PACT launched massive scale operation on entire inter-German border. Unprepared NATO on Germany faced fierce assault from PACT.
9) Some part of Italy expedition forces were still in the Germany at the moment of PACT invasion. As a part of CENTAG, with US V Corps troops, Italy expedition force mobilized and headed to direction of Lauterbach.

This is my best imagination so far, obviously I wouldn't be a good writer [:D]

[Hub6Actual]

“Unexpected” is probably not the best word. For run-of-the-mill nobodies like myself and what I’m allowed to read in the newspapers, it might be unexpected, but not for those folks on both sides whose job it is to make sure that word doesn’t wind up in the daily sitreps. I’m not a big believer in Tom Clancyesque maskirovkas and such. Still, maybe it was the joint NATO exercise that started the whole thing off...nervous fingers hovering over red buttons, etc.

Edit: Well, you are a better writer than I am, lol. What you said works for me!

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: Hub6Actual
“Unexpected” is probably not the best word. For run-of-the-mill nobodies like myself and what I’m allowed to read in the newspapers, it might be unexpected, but not for those folks on both sides whose job it is to make sure that word doesn’t wind up in the daily sitreps. I’m not a big believer in Tom Clancyesque maskirovkas and such. Still, maybe it was the joint NATO exercise that started the whole thing off...nervous fingers hovering over red buttons, etc.

I agree with that, but I find no any other clue [:D] Hopefully I wish players are convinced [;)] It might be possible to twist that story to include a plot of accidental engagement from inter-German border or Italy - Yugo border, which somehow expanded to bigger scale engagement. How do you think?

Edit: Well, you are a better writer than I am, lol. What you said works for me!

No I'm not, major part is your idea. I just tried to be a bit more reasonable. [:)]

[nikolas93TS]

NATO’s first foray into rapid reaction can be traced back to proposals in 1960 by SACEUR to create a rapidly deployable mobile force to help deter aggression against allied nations located on ACE’s northern and southern flanks. In peacetime, these nations hosted no or a very small allied military presence, and the concept of the Allied Command Europe Mobile Force (AMF) aimed at projecting a multinational deterrent capability on short notice.

National contributions to the AMF were organised into various pre-planned, multinational force packages optimised for deployment to the five AMF contingency areas – northern Norway; the Zealand islands of Denmark; northeast Italy; northern Greece and Greek and Turkish Thrace; and eastern Turkey. Planning and exercising were overseen by a small multinational staff located in Germany, but, in an actual contingency, command and control of the deployed AMF components would have been the responsibility of the local NATO land and air commanders, to ensure seamless integration between indigenous and reinforcing forces and present a single NATO “face”.

Ever since 1963 Italy has made a substantial contribution to AMF(L) in the form of the "Susa" Alpini Battalion, the 40th Mountain Artillery Battery, the 101st air-transportable field hospital and various other subunits of the "Taurinese" Alpini Brigade (es. Alpini Paratroopers Company, AT Company, pioneers etc). Each year they were deployed to any of the above mentioned areas, and hypothetically could be deployed there in case of war. However, logistical limitations meant that only part of this force could be brought to bear in one spot, so each nation was given areas of responsibility. The most likely operational areas for AMF(L) were the "Southern Flank" (most likely Italy or Turkey) and the "Northern Flank" (most likely Norway). Italians would have probably been deployed to Northern Flank, together with British, Canadian and Luxembourg battlegroups.

There was also a "Forza d'intervento Rapido" (Rapid Intervention Force) which was formed in 1986 and consisted of Parachute Brigade Folgore, Motorised Brigade Friuli, Marine Infantry Battalion San Marco and 1st Army Aviation Group Antares. While their primary role was immediate and rapid deployment in case of attack on Italian soil, they were also earmarked for peace-keeping (es. Balkans) and international security roles, so it is not beyond feasible they could have been deployed against an aggression not directly endangering Italian territory.

[exsonic01]

Thank you so much Nikolas, this is very helpful!! I will more look into those information, and hopefully I could make a good scenario of ITA vs USSR which would be a payback or recreation of "Operation Little Saturn"

[Capocarro94]

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

I know cold war Italy amry was under LANDSOUTH command with their own OP. And I think it would be really unlikely to happen such situation.

A Warsaw Pact move/attack against North-Eastern Italy was a probable situation (medium to high risk probability) that could happen during Cold War era. According to the Warsaw Pact War plans a "descent" to the North-Eastern Italy it would have been a task for the hungarian army accompanied by a small part of the Soviet Souther Group of Forces in Hungary.
In the first war plan scenario was expected for the Warsaw Pact forces to invade and violate the Austria neutrality first, and than invading the North-Eastern part of Italy passing trought Alpine passes by north.
For the second war plan scenario (less probable)was expected for the Warsaw Pact forces to invade and violate the Yugoslavia neutrality first passing trought the "Maribor-Lubjana corridor" and invade North-Eastern part of Italy passing trought "Gorizia Gap" (Soglia di Gorizia).
Both scenarios were finalized to capture/conquest North-Eastern Italy, Po Valley, between 15 days in this way neutralizing Italy as NATO member and avoing to NATO/USA forces to use Italy as a "jump plaform" to attack Warsaw Pact country from the souther-eastern flank in case of counter-attack.

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: Capocarro94
A Warsaw Pact move/attack against North-Eastern Italy was a probable situation (medium to high risk probability) that could happen during Cold War era. According to the Warsaw Pact War plans a "descent" to the North-Eastern Italy it would have been a task for the hungarian army accompanied by a small part of the Soviet Souther Group of Forces in Hungary.
In the first war plan scenario was expected for the Warsaw Pact forces to invade and violate the Austria neutrality first, and than invading the North-Eastern part of Italy passing trought Alpine passes by north.
For the second war plan scenario (less probable)was expected for the Warsaw Pact forces to invade and violate the Yugoslavia neutrality first passing trought the "Maribor-Lubjana corridor" and invade North-Eastern part of Italy passing trought "Gorizia Gap" (Soglia di Gorizia).
Both scenarios were finalized to capture/conquest North-Eastern Italy, Po Valley, between 15 days in this way neutralizing Italy as NATO member and avoing to NATO/USA forces to use Italy as a "jump plaform" to attack Warsaw Pact country from the souther-eastern flank in case of counter-attack.

Yeah, I know about the situation of Northern Italy and operational plans, and I agree with you. I think you may misunderstood my post, sorry for bad English. What I meant was here about "situation" from

I know cold war Italy amry was under LANDSOUTH command with their own OP. And I think it would be really unlikely to happen such situation

is, the situation of Italian armed forces formation (including armor, artillery, and mech.infantry) deployed inside FRG and fight under CENTAG or NORHTAG. Not the Northern Italy situation sorry for confusion. And thank you so much to share possible scenarios, those were interesting to read.

[Capocarro94]

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

Yeah, I know about the situation of Northern Italy and operational plans, and I agree with you. I think you may misunderstood my post, sorry for bad English. What I meant was here about "situation" from is, the situation of Italian armed forces formation (including armor, artillery, and mech.infantry) deployed inside FRG and fight under CENTAG or NORHTAG. Not the Northern Italy situation sorry for confusion. And thank you so much to share possible scenarios, those were interesting to read.

I understood your first post and your interest to know a possible deployment of some parts of units, I took your post and your interest as a occasion to participate with my knowledge about italian army and cold war era. As nikolas93TS said, Italy contribuited to "Allied Command Europe Mobile Force" during cold war period with some small contigent. Wikipidia report this units:

- Alpine (Mountain Infantry) Battalion "Susa"
- 40th mountain artillery battery of the "Pinerolo" mountain artillery group
- 101º field hospital (Airborne Medical Unit)
- National Support Unit formed with part of logistics battalion "Taurinense"
- Alpine (Mountain Infantry) Brigade "Taurinense" [all components were hipoteticaly ready for this deployment]
- Alpine (Mountain Infantry) paratroopers company [was and also is an elite unit of italian army]
- Sapper & Engineering Company [from 1986]
- Antitank Company (part of brigade "Taurinense")up to 1992

AMF-L has conducted exercises annually in many european NATO country since 1961.

In West Germany:
- 1965 "Ardent Ground"
- 1972 "Canadian Club"
- 1994 "Ardent Ground"

In Norway:
- 1963 "Northern Trail" (Finnmark)
- 1963 "Northern Express"
- 1964 "Northern Raw"
- 1965 "Winter Trail"
- 1970 "Arctic Express" (Narvik)
- 1970 "Arctic Express" (Narvik)
- 1980 "Anorak Express"
- 1982 "Alloy Express"
- 1984 "Avalanche Express"
- 1988 "Arrowhead Express"
- 1990 "Array Encounter 90"
- 1994 "Arctic Express"
- 1994 "Strong Resolve"

Another considerations are the possibility to create a sceanrio based on the Norther-Eastern Italy with US army forces. During cold war, I'm referring to the period 1970-1991, in Italy were permanently allocated a small number of combact troops (an infantry Airborne Battalion) plus Engineer, Ordnance and Signal Companies for assistance fo non convetional weapons.
In case of WW3, as Display Determination Exercises showed, some reinforcements could be deployed to Italy from CONUS and others NATO members as Portugal and Spain.