IJFB R+D question

[Hanzberger]

Wait a minute, CB you don't have late war experience? I know I've been gone for quite a few years but I find that hard to believe. Are you shredding your opponents or are they just running for dem dare heeills?
Just to clarify, the Ki-100 has a SR of 1.The 61 Ic has a SR of 3. Having said that I'm gonna go with Obvert on this one.
From my previous post above, I completely skipped the Jack and Tony. I was hoping to get by on the Tojo and Oscars until the Franks arrived. I wasn't sure about the Oscars when I set it up but I wanted the range. Obvert has clarified my thoughts.
Oh BTW I messed up the Giken on the chart, it's SR is 4.
Anyone have any experience with the KI-83?
RECON: IN my refresh my brain game, it seemed the Dinah was breaking down a lot. So much so I went back to the Babs.
Any thoughts on Recon?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger

Wait a minute, CB you don't have late war experience? I know I've been gone for quite a few years but I find that hard to believe. Are you shredding your opponents or are they just running for dem dare heeills?

No. Mostly they're dying. Literally. 3 of my last 4 CG PBEM partners are either confirmed goners or are strongly suspected to have snuffed it during our game. [:(]

Just to clarify, the Ki-100 has a SR of 1.The 61 Ic has a SR of 3. Having said that I'm gonna go with Obvert on this one.
From my previous post above, I completely skipped the Jack and Tony. I was hoping to get by on the Tojo and Oscars until the Franks arrived. I wasn't sure about the Oscars when I set it up but I wanted the range. Obvert has clarified my thoughts.
Oh BTW I messed up the Giken on the chart, it's SR is 4.
Anyone have any experience with the KI-83?

Yeah, several late / terminal war games with this. It's supposed to be good.

RECON: IN my refresh my brain game, it seemed the Dinah was breaking down a lot. So much so I went back to the Babs.
Any thoughts on Recon?

Big fan of the Dinah-III with the extended normal range.

[Hanzberger]

Ok I will give her another shot. That range does look juicy.

[ITAKLinus]

Oh yes, just for clarification: as Pax, I don't R&D NFs, but I produce them in good numbers.


Regarding other planes cited:

- Dinah-III: wonderful plane, I even R&D it. It's just perfect to fill gaps in low-priority areas in which you want to be covered but you don't want to invest more precious assets. Its 23 hexes in extended are almost as many as Mavis 25, but the low SR means it's much easier to keep those Dinah-III in the air. Also, there are many groups.

- Tony: I don't like it and I am for massive production of few models. I skip it completely.

- Tojo: I like the plane and it's better than the Oscar, but I generally equip few groups for sweeps and nothing more. Its armament is too little to damage heavy allied fighters or bombers. Some R&D on it.

- Oscar: my love. I love Oscars and I produce billions of them. Losses are generally huge. I love their agility, good armament (2x20mm and the 20mm have a very different feeling from the 12.7mm) and not so much inferior speed compared to Frank. Range is amazingly good and they carry a good payload. Especially for those who emply extensively low layered CAPs (and I'm a huge fan of them), Oscar is very good. At least, that's me. Heavy R&D on it in order to have the -IV ASAP.

- Frank: for the first time I am trying to research Frank-b directly instead of doing Frank-a and then Frank-r. It's the only plane capable of fighting back allied late war beasts. It's fast, well armed and with decent survivability. Definitely love it. Frank-b comes online much later and is not blessed by a common line with Frank-a, therefore I strongly advice against R&D on it.

- Nick: I like the plane in most of its variants. It's a very good gap filler to fight bombers and it uses Ha-35, of which I have a surplus production when I phase out A6M2-Zeros and Lilys. No R&D over it from my side.

- Nate: I keep producing it until I run out of engines. I use them as cannon fodder.

- Judy: Heavy R&D on it in order to accelerate as much as I can the first model so that I can then easily and quickly have the Judy-IV, which is a wonderful plane. Heavy payload, good range and decent stats. Definitely love it.

- Jill: I don't research it. Kate 1/2 are just good enough until the Jill comes online "naturally". As the game goes on, I tend to lower the amount of TBs on my CVs and I increase the number of DBs. It's something questionable, but it fits my general strategy and my doctrine, so I might be wrong for less extravagant postures.

- Peggy(T): I massively R&D them. It's another situational plane. It suits my doctrine and strategy, so I need it. I don't know whether less extreme players are willing to do the same, doubt so. I love it, even if results have always been modest.

- Helen: I R&D it with 3 factories on Helen-Ia, rushing the -IIa. I produce huge numbers of LB 2Es until the end/mid-43 and I like to have Helen-IIa ASAP. Reasoning is quite straightforward: it uses Ha-34, simplifying my production lines and it has a normal range of 11 hexes, precisely the distance between Hankow (AF lvl 9) and Chungking, so I need those guys soon in order to support my attacks on Chinese capital.

- Sam: I R&D it little. I generally add factories over the course of 42 as soon as I finish other projects, increasing over time the number of factories dedicated to the model. It's a sort of game changes since it gives your embarked fighters some kind of fighting capabilities against allied ones.

- Jack: R&D it for the first time in my current PBEM. I generally go for George, but I wanted to give a try to Jack. I produced them in very limited numbers in the past and they gave me a very good feeling in CAP. I tend to say they are better than George in CAP and much worse in all the other possible missions. I have nothing more than a feeling to say that they're better than George in CAP, though.

- George: best IJNAF fighter available and a must for every player. It's a wonderful plane and it can make the enemy suffer a lot.

- Late late war fighters: I don't R&D them at all. I did a game in which I massively R&D Ki-94-II but I was just mad.




In general, I tend to employ extensively low layered CAPs and I adjust my production for that. Also, I am of the opinion that HIs are not such a problematic factor, therefore I am quite open to have very bloody fights in which I lose many planes. That's why I produce huge numbers of Oscars, for example. I'm definitely the king of air losses, though. And I have weird strategic and doctrinal postures, so I know my choices are questionable.

[Hanzberger]

Wow what a huge mistake on my part about the Frank. Why ppl have not scolded me for that? I will have to edit my post as I no longer have that original file. [:@]
Looking over things over until late last night, the george does not have many groups. Am I missing something here?
Currently only putting them on 3 factories.
I too am going for stream line tactics.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger

Ok I will give her another shot. That range does look juicy.

The Dinah III was coveted by the Luftwaffe and for good reason. Fast, long range, very good recon plane or for naval search.

The Ki-83 is your best sweeper. Period. It's got 10/13 range, great CL mounted guns, and is very fast with a great max altitude.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

Oh yes, just for clarification: as Pax, I don't R&D NFs, but I produce them in good numbers.


Regarding other planes cited:

- Tojo: I like the plane and it's better than the Oscar, but I generally equip few groups for sweeps and nothing more. Its armament is too little to damage heavy allied fighters or bombers. Some R&D on it.

You don't differentiate models!!

The Ki-44 IIc has much better armament and is a great CAP plane with incredible climb, which of course is essential for CAP. It also has armour so your pilots fare much better.

- Frank: for the first time I am trying to research Frank-b directly instead of doing Frank-a and then Frank-r. It's the only plane capable of fighting back allied late war beasts. It's fast, well armed and with decent survivability. Definitely love it. Frank-b comes online much later and is not blessed by a common line with Frank-a, therefore I strongly advice against R&D on it.

I don't mind it's not on the same path. Get the Ki-84b as it's your best late war bomber killer. The CL 20mm do wonders. Also, it has longer range in my stock game due to having drop tanks, where the Ki-84r doesn't get them fo some reason. Throw 2 x 30 RnD on it.

- Sam: I R&D it little. I generally add factories over the course of 42 as soon as I finish other projects, increasing over time the number of factories dedicated to the model. It's a sort of game changes since it gives your embarked fighters some kind of fighting capabilities against allied ones.

One of the most important RnD projects for me as if you can get it in mid 44 it's still able to change the outcome of Allied progress.

- Jack: R&D it for the first time in my current PBEM. I generally go for George, but I wanted to give a try to Jack. I produced them in very limited numbers in the past and they gave me a very good feeling in CAP. I tend to say they are better than George in CAP and much worse in all the other possible missions. I have nothing more than a feeling to say that they're better than George in CAP, though.

Again, the different models are very different. The first J2M2 has incredible climb in a CAP role. The second J2M3 is service 2 and comes earlier usually than the N1K2. The J2M5 is a late war killer on CAP and in some exporting duties does well. It's limited as a sweeper compared tot eh George though.

In general, I tend to employ extensively low layered CAPs and I adjust my production for that. Also, I am of the opinion that HIs are not such a problematic factor, therefore I am quite open to have very bloody fights in which I lose many planes. That's why I produce huge numbers of Oscars, for example. I'm definitely the king of air losses, though. And I have weird strategic and doctrinal postures, so I know my choices are questionable.

The issue with lots of lost planes is not HI but pilots. Not your pilots only, but the allied pilots. The more masses of losses you take the more the Allies get better and better aces. Tehn you're stuck eventually in a downward spiral.

By mid-43 I want most battles to be over my bases, to have numerical superiority, and to win them. I want to lose half as many pilots as the Allies and get twice as many kills. Then the ratio starts going toward winning those battles more and more in spite of better and better Allied airframes.

Conversely, as Allies, I don't use my air forces unless I need to, and then I try to overwhelm a position to the point I can hit a lot of planes on the ground and get the fields very damaged, lowering morale of any CAP coming up the next day.

[ITAKLinus]

Tojo/Oscars: I am talking about Tojo-IIc and Oscar-IV. Final models. Tojo is researched directly to the Tojo-IIc, which is the only one going into production. For Oscar, my cannon fodder for mid to late game, I do research each model since I generally make one big factory of 100 Oscars on 7th DEC and I want to keep it active upgrading it. I tend to produce Oscar-Ic and Oscar-IV only, but I R&D each model so that I can upgrade the factory.


Frank-b. I agree with you. However, learning from my previous games, I came to the conclusion that Frank-a and then Frank-r is much more viable than Frank-b directly only. I had very hard times waiting from Frank-b. Eventually, have you tried to go for Frank-a/-r AND -b with good results? And, if so, how much have you invested? I have never done both with good results.


Jack/George: I go for one of the two only and directly to the last model. I prefer the George, but, as said, for CAP duties I have good feelings for Jacks. In line of principle, I tend to spare as much as I can IJNAF groups, therefore it's the IJAAF which takes the brunt of heavy air fights. I prefer George precisely because they are good sweepers and I like to use IJNAF groups for sweeps, leaving continuous (and bloody) operations to the army, which represents roughly 90% of the CAPs I set up after the end of 1942.


Sam: I have have very very good results in delaying the research of it. I put something like 3x30 on 7-dec and I add more and more factories during '42. I feel it's a good compromise for me.
I tried different configurations of R&D for embarked fighters. Have never been completely satisfied.



In general, when I pick R&D for mid and late fighters, I think almost only to CAP duties. That's why I am quite open to big losses in airframes: they explode on my bases. [:D][:D][:D][:D]. I use top-notch pilots for sweep missions and the rest of the crowd takes care of CAP. Never had a real problems in keeping IJAAF pilots in the skies. Got several shortages of IJNAF pilots, though.


I confess that many of my experiences come from trial and error, so I can speak only about what I have done and what I feel I should have done.

Also, I have quite a weird combination of strategy/doctrine. Last but not least, I strongly favour skipping intermediate models putting into production final ones. Industrially and logistically speaking, it's much easier to manage the whole production system (for example, if you pass directly from Oscar-Ic to Oscar-IV, you drastically reduce problems in stock management).

[Hanzberger]

Obvert, what do you fill the gap with between Oscars, Tojo to Frank?
Currently planning my next game, R+D first, and I am heavy on the FrankB from the Tojo and Oscars and nothing in between. Is this a mistake? I plan to keep researching the Oscar and Tojo until the better models, also producing as I go. I just don't like the Tony.
I'm glad you guys are helping me, I will have to divide the Frank B's and produce the A.
Any suggestion on # of factories for each?

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

Tojo/Oscars: I am talking about Tojo-IIc and Oscar-IV. Final models. Tojo is researched directly to the Tojo-IIc, which is the only one going into production. For Oscar, my cannon fodder for mid to late game, I do research each model since I generally make one big factory of 100 Oscars on 7th DEC and I want to keep it active upgrading it. I tend to produce Oscar-Ic and Oscar-IV only, but I R&D each model so that I can upgrade the factory.


Frank-b. I agree with you. However, learning from my previous games, I came to the conclusion that Frank-a and then Frank-r is much more viable than Frank-b directly only. I had very hard times waiting from Frank-b. Eventually, have you tried to go for Frank-a/-r AND -b with good results? And, if so, how much have you invested? I have never done both with good results.


Jack/George: I go for one of the two only and directly to the last model. I prefer the George, but, as said, for CAP duties I have good feelings for Jacks. In line of principle, I tend to spare as much as I can IJNAF groups, therefore it's the IJAAF which takes the brunt of heavy air fights. I prefer George precisely because they are good sweepers and I like to use IJNAF groups for sweeps, leaving continuous (and bloody) operations to the army, which represents roughly 90% of the CAPs I set up after the end of 1942.


Sam: I have have very very good results in delaying the research of it. I put something like 3x30 on 7-dec and I add more and more factories during '42. I feel it's a good compromise for me.
I tried different configurations of R&D for embarked fighters. Have never been completely satisfied.



In general, when I pick R&D for mid and late fighters, I think almost only to CAP duties. That's why I am quite open to big losses in airframes: they explode on my bases. [:D][:D][:D][:D]. I use top-notch pilots for sweep missions and the rest of the crowd takes care of CAP. Never had a real problems in keeping IJAAF pilots in the skies. Got several shortages of IJNAF pilots, though.


I confess that many of my experiences come from trial and error, so I can speak only about what I have done and what I feel I should have done.

Also, I have quite a weird combination of strategy/doctrine. Last but not least, I strongly favour skipping intermediate models putting into production final ones. Industrially and logistically speaking, it's much easier to manage the whole production system (for example, if you pass directly from Oscar-Ic to Oscar-IV, you drastically reduce problems in stock management).

You must not have much competition in the mid-game!!

I can't imagine not getting any intermediate models in the most important parts of the war, in late 42 through 43. I want to punish the allies I that stretch to help push back their advance as long as possible.

In my current game I spent on both, and got the first Frank-a in Nov 43. This is a look at my RnD at that point in the war.

The Elephant Vanishes R & D

[Hanzberger]

Obvert you certainly diversified your setup, and no one can argue that it didn't work. [&o]

[ITAKLinus]

Thank you for posting your R&D scheme, I didn't remember it.

I am much more focused. I mean, when I say "I go for Frank-b" I am putting 15 factories on it.

Oscar has currently 8 factories in my PBEM. I don't have too much waiting once I do research the first model. On the other side, I have to pick very few models at the beginning of the game.


Generally, for fighters other than the initial ones, I decide how much I will produce of each model and I run overproduction until I complete the production level I decided.
I produce in "lots".

To make an example. I decide I want 7.000 Oscar-IV. I calculate whether I can afford that even before deciding the total amount and then I run over-production until I have completed my production, then I redirect my efforts. It's weird, but it works somehow and it's quite an easy way to manage production.
This approach allows me to over invest in a model, skip intermediate ones, overproduce it for a while and then redirect my efforts.


I am lazy as hell currently, but I'll post my notes somewhere sometime and it makes sense. It's more expensive in terms of supplies, though, so there is a need to, at least partially, counterbalance this cost.



The very basic idea is:
1 - Heavy investment in few models
2 - Once they are researched, massive production thanks to factories going online
3 - Once you reach the desired production level, i.e. the total amount of the "lot" you decided beforehand to produce, you redirect your industrial efforts
4 - All these factories are redirected toward late game a/c, which would have a very ROI starting early R&D


Take Oscar-IV. You say you want to produce 7.000 Oscar-IV. You have an initial production of 100 Oscar-Ic/month. Put 12x30 with engine bonus. Once you research every model, you have 12x30+100 = 460 Oscar-IV/month. You start producing Oscar-IV in, say, 01.01.1943
Since you need 15 months to have your Oscar-IV lot completed, you will complete your "lot" on 26.03.1944
On that date, you increase your investment in other models such as late late fighters or other stuff.

It's just an example to show my state of mind.


I introduced this way of producing stuff for embarked fighters, which is somehow easy to define. I found it extremely efficient and simple and I decided to give it a try in general. It's good, provided you dedicate some time to calculate everything when you start the game and that you are able to make somewhat accurate calculations of your needs. Also, some models have to remain "open", meaning with no pre-defined production numbers.


Ehi, you are far more experienced than me and a better player for sure. I am just writing few considerations I employ with some success.


Last but not least, don't think it's an inflexible way of managing industry: it's actually quite solid and modifiable accordingly to unexpected situations.
Take also into consideration that I have never reached very late '45 in any game. I don't know whether this approach can have devastating effectes once you survive the first few monts of '45.



EDIT: oooops, little edit. I forgot to mention that I made a very simplified example of that. It's not that I decide for 7k oscars, overproduce them and then f@ck off. I probably decide for 7k Oscars, overproduce it for a while and then redirect part of the efforts. To make it more clear: I might produce 5k through overproduction, then I switch most of the factories leaving 200/month in order to complete the "lot". Don't think I do switch all those 13 factories of the example! I'm not so mad.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger

Wow what a huge mistake on my part about the Frank. Why ppl have not scolded me for that? I will have to edit my post as I no longer have that original file. [:@]
Looking over things over until late last night, the george does not have many groups. Am I missing something here?
Currently only putting them on 3 factories.
I too am going for stream line tactics.

In PDU ON, all IJN fighter groups not on a CV can upgrade to N1K. It matters a GREAT deal whether your game is PDU ON or OFF. All of these discussions are assuming PDU ON.

[Hanzberger]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger

Wow what a huge mistake on my part about the Frank. Why ppl have not scolded me for that? I will have to edit my post as I no longer have that original file. [:@]
Looking over things over until late last night, the george does not have many groups. Am I missing something here?
Currently only putting them on 3 factories.
I too am going for stream line tactics.

In PDU ON, all IJN fighter groups not on a CV can upgrade to N1K. It matters a GREAT deal whether your game is PDU ON or OFF. All of these discussions are assuming PDU ON.

wait so zeros too?
edit: So looking at paper so to speak, the N1k2-J is equal to the A7m, and 11 months sooner. Your confusing my confused brain Pax...
edit, edit: I originally selected the N1K2-J over the Sam, then only gave it.....3 factories in favor of the Sam. (test build)in favor of the overwhelmingly favorite, the Sam
Im ready to shred my plans and go with Obvert style of diversification. I wonder if he's rich?[X(]

[Hanzberger]

gonna run a test turn, and I will post where I am at.....and they call this fun....

[PaxMondo]

N1K is not quite as good as A7M, but yes close and comes much sooner. A7M is CV capable, N1K is not in all stock scenarios.

[Hanzberger]

Ok so what did I miss or where am I off?

[Hanzberger]

Ok so sitting here thinking about things, not sure this will work in regards to engines.
With scen1 data, this is tuff. 20 factories. I have 13 producing now which isn't enough, and 7 for R+D, which isn't enough.
Can an air frame arrive before an engine?

[PaxMondo]

HB,

OK, so with your investments in Judy/Jill you are saying that you intend to have a major CV confrontation with the allies late '42 or early '43. Thus, you had better have a series of tactics in place to make this happen or you have squandered a lot of RnD.

Against the AI, this strategy is quite achievable. In a PBEM, it is a measure of your opponent as to whether you think you can get him to commit his CV's B4 he gets F6F's.

Next, where is a Dinah factory? You commit 2 factories to IJN RC (and you get only a few IJN recon airgroups), but no factories to IJA airgroups (you get something like 5x the IJN recon airgroups for the IJA). Dinah is the best recon in the game, you want to build it for sure.

Next: you have 4+4+17+3 = 28 RnD on IJN fighters and 1+6+4+16+2=29 on IJA Balanced, and in total not inappropriate. Here's my rationale about either go big or don't bother. There are two reasons to go big:
1. when a new model is available, how long will it take to upgrade an average size airgroup to the new model.
EX: 6x30 means you will build 6 AC/day or it will take you 8 production days to be able to upgrade a size 48 airgroup. Not bad, in the first month you will have almost 4 air groups flying the new model; ie you can have a small impact in the war.
EX 2: 16x30 means an airgroup every 3 days, 10 air groups in the first month. This is a HUGE potential impact if you are moving from Oscar to Frank (or A6M to A7M).
1. How much sooner will you actually get the new model.
EX 1: 3x30 will get a model somewhere between 60 to 90 days early depending upon a lot of factors, call it 75. So in your plan, you will pull N1K in from 9/43 to sometime in 6/43 meaning that by 9/1/43 you will be fielding 4 or maybe 5 airgroups with N1K's.
EX 2: 15x30 on N1K will get you that same aircraft 3/43 and you would be able to field 60 (sixty) airgroups by 9/1/43. Of course you don't have 60, so it really means that ALL of your IJN non-CV fighter groups will be upgraded well before 9/43 AND 12x30 will be RnD on the N1K2 by then with 3x30 building replacements for your ongoing losses. NiK2 will be available early '44 where the same thing happens again (fast upgrade of all airgroups followed by large RnD push on the N1K5).

Clearly, this strategy of GO BIG can only work on 2 or maybe 3 models total. The decision of which ones to build is really tough. To use this on only 2 models, will allow you to go after a few other models with a 3x30 RnD effort. To go after 3 models means that ALL other models that you build will be 1x30 RnD (meaning you get them pretty much when they historically arrive, and then you will INCREASE that one factory to be as big as you need it. EX: D4Y will easily be built up to 120x1 or even 180x1 to support needs.)

Are any of these RnD strategies going to win the war for you? I doubt it. For me, I just HATE flying Nates/Claudes (or anything like them). A7M and Ki-84 are among the best aircraft the IJ gets and I want those ASAP.

[PaxMondo]

A7M
You read about this a lot and you may think that IJFB's are over obsessive about the A7M. As you point out the N1K is almost as good and lot sooner. So what's the big deal?

The difference, and it is huge, is about coordination. CV attacks are your best coordinated attacks. Take 1000 LBA aircraft and assign them one target. You will get ~10 separate attacks on that target. Take the KB 1000 aircraft and you can get that punch in one single attack.

This is why getting the A7M is so important: it greatly improves the KB attack. The F6F was designed to kill the A6M and it does so with incredible efficiency. Likewise, the A7M was designed to kill the F6F which is also does very nicely. With the A7M, you have the muscle to get your KB attack through the Deathstar CAP … you are still going to lose +50% of your bombers to AA, but you should get some solid hits. Crap shoot if it works, but with the A6M it almost never works. See recent AAR results to once again prove it. If the A7M KB is supported with good LBA, an attack against the DeathStar can actually work … 50/50, maybe 40/60 … something like that. With the A6M, in all my sandboxing, I have gotten that to work exactly once. years ago, and I have never been able to repeat it.*

I need to add here, that in my sandboxing with the KB against the DS, the KB never survives. The best outcome is that the DS is crippled (down to like 1000 AC, about 50% of its original size). For the KB, whatever doesn't sink outright is in docks until the war is over mostly. But a 1000 plane DS is no longer supremely powerful, LBA can penetrate that and so the allies are in real trouble.

*It was a 10 hex attack AND miraculously the allies attacked a base on the same turn. It allowed the KB attack to face FAR fewer than normal CAP and it actually got through and achieved maybe 20 hits dropping the DS potency by about 25%. That is the one and only good result I have gotten with A6M.

**All my DS sandboxing is against a 9/44 DS. Still an early one, not fully developed.