IJFB R+D question

[Hanzberger]

Ok on the topic of Navy NF's, what is the plan?
Do you go for the Irving or the Zero?
Originally have it setup for 3X Zero. But I'm wondering if I should switch to the Irving.
Yes the downsides: 2 engines, speed, gun value, durability and the list goes on.
Upside: 11 Groups, If you can get the engine bonus possible get first group mid 43.
All other NF's have 0 groups, except the Judy (1). Is it safe to assume you can upgrade all groups to the zero?
Or do a combo, maybe 1 Irving 2 Zero?
Just thinking it would be nice to have some NF's sooner then later....

[PaxMondo]

PDU ON or OFF?

[Hanzberger]

On

[PaxMondo]

Then you need to decide your strategy for the game. Auto Vic or Deep Defense until 5/46.

[LargeSlowTarget]

A night-fighter should have radar and fly faster than a B-29 in order to find and catch them, a good punch to shoot them down and armor protection to keep losses down. An early availability date and an engine produced in abundance would be a plus.

Unfortunately, none of the IJNAF night-fighters has all those attributes (and only one IJAAF comes close). So pick your favorite sub-optimal airframe and pray to the Gods of War.

[ITAKLinus]

Provided that IJNAF is just half of your available airforce, I generally prefer investing a little bit on IJAAF only.
Reasoning behind that is the number of available air groups.

I tend to prefer the mediocre Dinah over the Randy for the simple reason that Randy comes online very very late and I don't want to devote huge efforts to NF R&D.
In my current PBEMs I don't research NFs at all in the first year of war. In the one of the two in which I am in 43 already, I am now researching Dinah only with relative focus.
Don't think my approach is wise, tough.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

A night-fighter should have radar and fly faster than a B-29 in order to find and catch them, a good punch to shoot them down and armor protection to keep losses down. An early availability date and an engine produced in abundance would be a plus.

Unfortunately, none of the IJNAF night-fighters has all those attributes (and only one IJAAF comes close). So pick your favorite sub-optimal airframe and pray to the Gods of War.

+1

And don't build too many because you don't have a lot of groups even in PDU ON that can use them. [:(]

[PaxMondo]

I don't research NF's much any more. There are too few groups, the planes are too mediocre, and you can always use day fighters on Night CAP. Granted, you don't get the NF bonus, but you have lots of day fighter groups with good planes.

As you can see, Randy is the only decent night fighter you get, and it won't arrive until late '45 without a lot of work. That effort is much better spent on getting the A7M which is FAR more useful in your general war effort. 18x30 RnD will have the A7Ms showing up in '44 when you really need it. It's a naval fighter that can beat the F6F and meet the f4U and in PDU ON you can far greater numbers than either allied fighter. Bottom liner: game changer. Randy is nice, but in no way is it ever a game changer because you cannot deploy enough of them.

* I do build all (most) of the models as they arrive, I just don't expend much effort in getting them early.

[Hanzberger]

Well good advice everyone, that is why I asked.
Pax how soon do you have to have 18 factories?
I spent the last hour reviewing my R+D. I can do 11 now in 2/42-3/42.

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I don't research NF's much any more. There are too few groups, the planes are too mediocre, and you can always use day fighters on Night CAP. Granted, you don't get the NF bonus, but you have lots of day fighter groups with good planes.

As you can see, Randy is the only decent night fighter you get, and it won't arrive until late '45 without a lot of work. That effort is much better spent on getting the A7M which is FAR more useful in your general war effort. 18x30 RnD will have the A7Ms showing up in '44 when you really need it. It's a naval fighter that can beat the F6F and meet the f4U and in PDU ON you can far greater numbers than either allied fighter. Bottom liner: game changer. Randy is nice, but in no way is it ever a game changer because you cannot deploy enough of them.

* I do build all (most) of the models as they arrive, I just don't expend much effort in getting them early.

Agree completely.

In the early game I use various models in NF roles against those pesky B17s and in general I do pretty well.

I tend to defend very few locations and I mass AA as well.

For example, I am currently (May-42) defending Magwe with massed AA (20 units of different sizes and calibres) and I use a mixture of Nates and Nick as NFs.
Nicks are quite good since they can actually shot down or badly damage B17s, while their durability allows them not to receive continuosly the "driven off by defensive gunfire..." message.

Nates... Well, I'm a stingy b@stard and I use them extensively in semi-suicide roles with horrible pilots. They're the epitome of the "cannon fodder" concept. I even keep producing them until I finish engines. They're role is just to disturb bombers' formations.
I also use them in airfield attack during sieges to soak up AA shots from the enemy. Quite funnily, they are performing unreasonably well in this role.
In the last month of siege of Sidney I set them at 10.000ft and they have huge numbers of "damaged" planes, but few destroyed outright. I guess it's something due to their agility and dimension. Or whatever.



As the game goes on, I keep avoiding proper NF R&D. The problem is given chiefly by B29s, which are indeed a PITA. However, regarding R&D, I am a great proponent of the theory of "go big or go home". Said in other words, either I research intensively one model or I don't research it at all.
I find that the tradeoffs of heavy R&D over NFs is actually too much.
The Dinah comes relatively early but it's finally a piece of crap. Randy is amazing but comes very late.
What to do then?

I think that investing more in game-changer planes is much more useful than having some planes accelerated few months. For example, the afromentioned Sam is quite a big deal. Same goes with Frank-a (or, eventually, -b). Not to speak about other models such as the Shinden or the KI94II.




Again, I am an advocate of "no R&D on NFs", but I don't want to mislead anyone. I am not an expert player. It's just the reasoning behind my decision of going big(er) on something else.



On a side note, has anyone tried Tojo-III (the one with the 2x40mm) in any kind of role? I am considering to field some groups equipped with it.
I generally use groups of 12 planes for Nicks and 42 for whatever 1E IJAAF fighter I am eploying, but I'd like to try those 40mm. They'll be disappointing, I guess, but who knows... I see this plane as worth a try for a supporting NF role.

[Hanzberger]

Yes I have been away from the game for quite some time. Not sure of the long term implications of choices made early.
Looking over my current R+D plan, it's not bad, but could have been better from the start.
Some early 'mistakes' are standing out now, such as multiple factories on one air frame. I should have kept them single.
However going back to what Pax had asked, I was planning for early victory, which seems I am on the road to.
If memory serves me correctly, I only made it to the end of 42 once, started a PBEM, player quit and then I walked away from the game.
Also RL played a part also.
I suppose now I will have to decide on a restart, def a harder scenario, now that I have ironed out most of my wrinkles in the brain.
If anyone knows of any good AAR's, with a good R+D setup, please let me know.
Particularly F's. Still uncertain as to how many and what for early, mid.
Current game I'm heavily invested in the Frank, George and the Ki-83.
Other questions that still have me pondering:
Recon, Helen, Grace, Peggy.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger

If anyone knows of any good AAR's, with a good R+D setup, please let me know.
Particularly F's. Still uncertain as to how many and what for early, mid.
Current game I'm heavily invested in the Frank, George and the Ki-83.
Other questions that still have me pondering:
Recon, Helen, Grace, Peggy.

Mike Solli's AAR (probably buried now) has some good discussions about plane research during setup. See if you can find it.

For my IJAAF, I'm taking advantage of the research tree 'bonus' by pulling forward the Ki-44-IIc into 1942. I'm using the Tony bonus to similarly pull forward the Ki-100-I a good year and a half early. Otherwise, Ki-84a/r is my other IJAAF fighter focus for 1943 (late) and beyond.

For IJNAF carriers, I'm going for A6M5c early-mid-war fighter and then A7 later in the war. George and Jack/Raiden will also be produced in number. Of course, in Sc. 2 the George and Jack aren't carrier capable, but you can find some mods that will let them be carrier capable. [;)]

For IJNAF strike planes, I'm pushing for D4Y3/4 ASAP, B6N1/2 at a more modest clip and (later) Grace. Peggy(T) is represented, but to a modest amount.

[Hanzberger]

Appreciate your comments CB. My setup is actually not far off. However I did write off the Tony, Jack completely so I'm glad you commented.
Having said all that, I know, CB, or believe I read that you only play Scen2. Well me too. However, in my current 'refresh my brain game' I am
just doing too well all over the map. I'm even paying PP's and China is going great.
I'm thinking of restarting a game playing the Iron man 17 nasty(1). I ran a turn just to look at data, and it is based off Scen 1.
With only time for an AI game, any thoughts or other suggestions on a scenario?
Here is my current R+D. See any other glaring mistakes?

[Hanzberger]

Yes I realize some of the 'tree' mistakes made and NF's(Pax)

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger

Yes I realize some of the 'tree' mistakes made and NF's(Pax)

Not mistakes, just learning to see/formulate better strategies and better tactics.

[obvert]

There are a lot of people getting down on Japanese NFs and I just don't agree. [;)]

A lot depends on how you use them, how you match them with flak and radar in bases, and especially what pilots you put in them. I don't care about whether they're one engine or two because these are the only reasons some of my engine factories and HI are still functioning.

I have 2.5 million HI in Dec 45 but could really use more resources and supplies, and Nf are the guardians of the industry for the last two years of the game. Make the best, regardless of cost, and put the best pilots in them.

IJNAF:

J1N1-Sa: This is the best performing IJNAF NF in game, and I am still seeing it get solid kills in Dec 45. One of my pilots is a 22 kill ace in this plane! The radar is the difference and still lets them target even B-29s.

J1N1-S: Good early NF and keeps things afloat until better arrive.

C6N1-S Myrt: This is the second best IJNAF NF and gets some kills BUT is fragile and you end up losing more pilots/airframes.

P1Y2-S: The Frances works because of it's extra durability as well as radar and decent speed. I use this I concert with the others at bigger bases. Takes some hits and keeps on ticking.


A6M5d-S: Useful to resize NF groups on CVs and if you're in need of NF in small bases with little support. Otherwise it's an ace-maker for HB pilots.

D4Y2-Y: Same as above.

S1A1: Too late.


IJAAF:

Ki-45 KAId: You have to make this as some BIG NF groups only use this plane. It's good but not great and without radar needs numbers.

Ki-102c: The best NF by a good margin. Even in small numbers this baby is a beast. I would make another RnD factory for this next time around to get it even a few months earlier. It's that important.

Ki-109-I: Not great.

Ki-46 KAI: Not as good as I'd hoped. Don't bother. Just make the Nick and hope the Randy comes soon.


Ki-102b: As a FB you can make a lot of these, and convert a lot of groups to use them. Not as good as a true NF but durable with good armament and does help. Numbers are the key, but you will lose a lot more of these than dedicated NF.

For this reason I DON'T use other 1E fighters in an NF role. It's too much of a pilot and airframe bleed, and that is a supply bleed in the late war too, so I'm not interested. I'd rather keep more 2E going which are much more effective and durable and I don't have to replace nearly as often, even though there is a higher cost.

Here is the list of Nf groups possible. There are more than most realise.

[Hanzberger]

Hey Thanks for stopping in Obvert. I actually spent my night reading your AAR. (wed).
I am considering all options and advice given. But the biggest decision is what scenario
to restart. With limited time, it's such a huge decision for me. I poured a lot of hours into
my current game, but it seems to be to easy. Oh well, it was a nice refresh I suppose.

[PaxMondo]

I agree with all of obverts assessments in terms of which AC models work and which not so much. Note the J1N1 is one of your first NF's to arrive. To clarify, I've never said I don't build them, I do. I build quite a few of them. I keep the pools always will above what is being used. I just don't put RnD into them other than the factory which will build them.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger

Appreciate your comments CB. My setup is actually not far off. However I did write off the Tony, Jack completely so I'm glad you commented.
Having said all that, I know, CB, or believe I read that you only play Scen2. Well me too. However, in my current 'refresh my brain game' I am
just doing too well all over the map. I'm even paying PP's and China is going great.
I'm thinking of restarting a game playing the Iron man 17 nasty(1). I ran a turn just to look at data, and it is based off Scen 1.
With only time for an AI game, any thoughts or other suggestions on a scenario?
Here is my current R+D. See any other glaring mistakes?

Hanzberger,

I don't use tracker, so I'm at a loss to interpret the spreadsheet screenshot that you provided. Can you put that in 'laymans terms' for the likes of me? [:)]

I don't have as much late war experience as others that have posted here, so I have to rely on Kentucky windage and what seems like it's an efficient use of research / engine bonuses for pulling forward. I'm not really sold on the Jack and there's many players that swear by the either/or development of the George versus the Jack. I hear the argument, but the J2M5 looks really good on paper and is-in my mind- a source of diversification. I could be wrong, as I've not made it late war. Time will tell. But I've not seen enough arguments against the Ki-100-I that weigh against the use of the Tony line for late-war Tony models as diversification away from the Frank. If I can pull a very good 1945 airframe into the latter half of 1943, doesn't that augur for doing so? In my mind, it does. But I'm still interested in weighing arguments another way.

My last 4 PBEMs have been scenario 2. I've not played other mods. The last time I played a Sc. 1 game was in 2010-11, IIRC. So, yeah-I only play Sc.2 in recent history.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger

Appreciate your comments CB. My setup is actually not far off. However I did write off the Tony, Jack completely so I'm glad you commented.
Having said all that, I know, CB, or believe I read that you only play Scen2. Well me too. However, in my current 'refresh my brain game' I am
just doing too well all over the map. I'm even paying PP's and China is going great.
I'm thinking of restarting a game playing the Iron man 17 nasty(1). I ran a turn just to look at data, and it is based off Scen 1.
With only time for an AI game, any thoughts or other suggestions on a scenario?
Here is my current R+D. See any other glaring mistakes?

Hanzberger,

I don't use tracker, so I'm at a loss to interpret the spreadsheet screenshot that you provided. Can you put that in 'laymans terms' for the likes of me? [:)]

I don't have as much late war experience as others that have posted here, so I have to rely on Kentucky windage and what seems like it's an efficient use of research / engine bonuses for pulling forward. I'm not really sold on the Jack and there's many players that swear by the either/or development of the George versus the Jack. I hear the argument, but the J2M5 looks really good on paper and is-in my mind- a source of diversification. I could be wrong, as I've not made it late war. Time will tell. But I've not seen enough arguments against the Ki-100-I that weigh against the use of the Tony line for late-war Tony models as diversification away from the Frank. If I can pull a very good 1945 airframe into the latter half of 1943, doesn't that augur for doing so? In my mind, it does. But I'm still interested in weighing arguments another way.

My last 4 PBEMs have been scenario 2. I've not played other mods. The last time I played a Sc. 1 game was in 2010-11, IIRC. So, yeah-I only play Sc.2 in recent history.

The J2M5 is very good, but the N1K5 is just that much better. They seem virtually the same on paper, but the one glaring difference is the 2 x 12.7cm CL MG of the George. Those seem to make all the difference as a sweeper, getting that bit of damage on planes consistently.

After years of hoping to find more and better uses for the Ki-100, I tend to agree that they're just not that good and service 3 be damned, I'd rather have more Franks sooner. For your service 1 just keep using Tojo Iic until they run out. The way I play the Oscar IV is also useful, but it's not for everyone.