2x3+ Team Side Game - BOTH SIDES

[Telemecus]

T012 Axis



For North AAR see fb.asp?m=4453558

[Telemecus]

T012 Axis Air

The air war is getting hot! Air losses for the turn are

This is the first turn when we heard the enemy had no partisan supply flights though. So we assume they will still have good chances of some partisan strikes
which we need to balance against how far we go.

Mud+Partisans+Gorky=Trouble

[Telemecus]

T012 Axis Leaders

So far the only leadership changes have been
-von Kluge to OKH (all that morale)
-Model in I corps and Hell in XXXVIII (Leningrad)
-von Arnim and Knobbelsdorff to replace the two bad panzer corps commanders (all those extra MPs per HQ Buildup).

Until now we have prioritised points for HQBUs almost entirely and thought we would until bad weather. And then when HQ Buildups no longer make sense, start to use points to get rid of command penalties and then improve leadership. But with the latest patch we have updated to which has more expensive HQ Buildups it makes sense to spend on alternatives.

Here are, by averages of the four combat related ratings, our worst corps commanders
Panzer
-Georg Stumme 9/XXXXPz (5.25)
Infantry
-Hermann Geyer 4/IX Corps (5.00)
-Friedrich Koch 6/XXXXIV (5.00)
-Walter Kuntze 9/XXXXII (5.00)
-Otto Foerster 9/VI (4.75)
-Werner Kienitz 6/XVII (4.75)

We do have these good commanders in the pool
Panzer
-Friedrich Kirchner (6.50)
Infantry
-Karl Adolf Hollidt (7.00)
-Wilhelm Stemmermann (6.50)
-Maximilian de Angelis (6.25)
-Kurt von der Chevallerie (6.25)
-Friedrich Mieth (6.25)
-Kurt von Tippelskirch (6.25)
-Karl Strecker (6.00)
-Kurt Herzog (6.00)
-Paul Laux (6.00)
-Erich Marcks (6.00)
-Hans Schmidt (6.00)
One more very good one should be promoted in October and two in December

Getting rid of command penalties probably would give you more bang for you buck. But priorities for leaders afterwards are

i) Getting best average of admin/ini/mot into Panzer corps (unless they have an infantry rating higher than their motorised)
ii) Getting best average of admin/ini/inf into infantry corps (and 103RHG as used as a combat command for regiments and cavalry) if not otherwise used for panzer corps
iii) Getting high morale leaders into High Command and Army Groups (including Jodl whose other bad stats mean we want him in an army group to stop him getting a lower position, maybe Kesselring for north after losing Luft 2 but before Luft 6 arrives in 1942 and AGN goes to sleep?, but not for AGS until split) as they are often too far for the other ratings to be worthwhile if not otherwise used above
iv) Getting best average of morale/admin/ini/mot into Panzer groups/armies (unless they have an infantry rating higher than their motorised) if not otherwise used above
v) Getting best average of morale/admin/ini/inf into infantry armies, with better morale for tie breakers, if not otherwise used above

From this turn onwards we are using a tracking spreadsheet that will be continuously updated to plan this. Each ground commander will still be in charge and can decide where they want to spend how many points on which commanders. But at least it will mean they have a larger selection to choose from up front and some suggestions in allocations each turn. A plan can help still in avoiding wasting points by repeatedly appointing the same person in successive turns. Someone may be very good - but if they are needed for a panzer command points could be wasted appointing them to an infantry command the turn before. It can also make sense to appoint an army commander with low political ratings say to an army command to reduce the cost of replacing their corps command. We have also gone through the data to get the promotion dates of major generals so we can plan for the ones that become available soon.

Note: An earlier version of the spreadsheet can be downloaded from the Library of WitE resources see 4.5 here https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4317692

[Crackaces]

A big decision was made on Turn 12. A look at my previous AAR shows the details. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... 475&mpage= post 79 . In summary, I could cross the Neva with the armor and clean Leningrad in one turn, or start moving toward Moscow. One thing this discussion shows is a general plan rather than pushing units from turn to turn. That is anticipating strategic goals that everyone agrees to and then executing.

The discussion with the team is shown below:

Turn 12 4th Sep 1942 - Bronze Charger

Supreme Commander:
but been discussing what to do with North post Leningrad
my suggestion
there are three possibilities
i) gorky inc yaro and murom
ii) Voronezh inc tambov ,Lipetsk etc
iii) Rostov and army group split

AGN:
I think there is 2 options for 4th Pz group to help Moscow
1) cut inside at Kallin run to Moscow using our flipped hexes
2) continue to flip hexes on a journey to Yaro threatening to cut off any units to the right flank .. protecting AGC left flank
1) continue past Kallin and use already flipped hexes to directly get involved with Moscow

AGS:
1) continue past Kallin and use already flipped hexes to directly get involved with Moscow
AGC flank threatening - they don't have the troops

AGN :
Oh OK
Well you take Kalinin and I will take Likhoslavi ..
that will seal everything west
about 4 good units at least in that pocket
30 units secured in the South
24 in Leningrad


AGN:
VV next turn (13), Sonkovo (14) Volga (15) and cross Yaroslavl 16..

Supreme Commander 09/02/2018
crossing can be tough

AGN:
Sonkovo we send a unit to ovnische

Supreme Commander:

are the two other nearby industrial centres
that usually go with them - but worth keeping an eye on them

AGN:
The left hook with move on Moscow has changed the point of foci
I think the smart move would be to rail from Leningrad and start building on teh Volga between Rybinsk and Kalyazin

AGN:
Initially yes
Infantry one turn behind by that point
XXVIII Corps
II Corps to take VV
XXIII Corps mans the Msta
Finns the Volkhov
Eventually X Corps to Sonkovo
Or VV and II Corps to Sonkovo
Ok that is the plan .. else Infantry and armor slug there way East along the rail
Direct to Sonkovo
In that case I will take a Corps HQBU this next turn
The former plan .. I think you could get to Murom?


AGN:
Bronze Charger ..

Supreme Commander
Bronze Ladegerät according to google translate to german

AGN:
205 127 50 for Bronze units
RGB

Axis Chief of Staff 13/02/2018:
actually in all seriousnes fortifying the volga might be a good bet for them

AGN:
I am thinking in the 2x3 game the Soviets will be around 3.5M at the start of the Blizzard

AGN:
Right now .. 70 units isolated
actually 83 total
I think I Corps can be at the gates of Moscow end of turn 17 ..
Plan Mud for Turn 18
if things last that long

AGN:
Leningrad turn 13, North Leningrad 14 move to Pskov turn 15, get on rail turn 16, Vzamya Turn 17

[Telemecus]

T012 999 Battles error

Soviet Commander
Funny, when I look at the "report" map and the Commander's Report "battles" tab, I don't see any Axis attacks. Yet they clearly attacked - they are across the Neva next to Osinovets and have broken through behind Velikie Luki. Something wrong with the save game?

I can still remember the day when I mentioned that Axis recon is underused - which is a pity as they have a lot of it. As well as the common usage of unit spotting that many think of it can be used to raise detection levels to improve bombing, identify where enemy interception does and does not occur, tell you your opponents air doctrine - and even on the ground can help to reduce fighter and bomber losses when your airbases are bombed. But also they can be used to fatigue enemy air groups as they chase you. By this I meant a subtle tactic to target a small number of troublesome enemy fighter groups. see post 945 here fb.asp?m=4610961 . This was the scalpel. Little did I realise others would take this idea and grow it to a blunderbuss!



And once you get to 999 battles you are into the bug see https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4323500 - from here onwards for this turn we are in a new form of fog of war! We are combating game bugs and code holes!

[Telemecus]

T012 999 Battles error continued

Axis North Commander
I could not tell how many planes were responding .. so I limited my raids

[Beria]

Been asked by the new players why we have to use emails for any communications which we need to be sure everyone receives. It originates from the Soviet side which refused to use discord for a long time. Eventually all were persuaded to join, but the default has to be you cannot assume anyone gets a message using discord say.

[Beria]

T012 Soviet Team Organisation

Soviet Supreme Commander
HOW THE TURNS ARE NOW GOING TO WORK :
1-Supreme Commander
2-Air Marshall -
3-Central Commander -
4-Northern Commander -
5-Southern Commander - Air Marhsall
6-Supreme Commander.

Team work is now getting organized!

Soviet Centre Commander
I understand that several previous Central Front Marshals have been 'excused'. I will try to last a bit longer. : )
I ... consider defensive warfare my best field. I have been informed we are facing a challenging situation, I will do what I can. o7
(4th centre commander)

Soviet South Commander
hello everyone, I'm the new Southern commander.Also, I accept the job of Air Marshall. I won't give too much micromanagement to the Air force...

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

T012 Axis Leaders

Here are, by averages of the four combat related ratings, our worst corps commanders
Panzer
-Georg Stumme 9/XXXXPz (5.25)
Infantry
-Hermann Geyer 4/IX Corps (5.00)
-Friedrich Koch 6/XXXXIV (5.00)
-Walter Kuntze 9/XXXXII (5.00)
-Otto Foerster 9/VI (4.75)
-Werner Kienitz 6/XVII (4.75)

We do have these good commanders in the pool
Panzer
-Friedrich Kirchner (6.50)
Infantry
-Karl Adolf Hollidt (7.00)
-Wilhelm Stemmermann (6.50)
-Maximilian de Angelis (6.25)
-Kurt von der Chevallerie (6.25)
-Friedrich Mieth (6.25)
-Kurt von Tippelskirch (6.25)
-Karl Strecker (6.00)
-Kurt Herzog (6.00)
-Paul Laux (6.00)
-Erich Marcks (6.00)
-Hans Schmidt (6.00)
One more very good one should be promoted in October and two in December

Where is Steiner? His attack will set everything right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR5q0ajW8Ko

[chee006]

T012 Soviet Change of Strategy

Soviet Supreme Commander
Now that Moscow is encircled, we have a two options in front of us. We can, fight as much as we can and risk many more encirclement.
Or
Retreat to the Yaroslavl - Gorky line and defend the whole river.

If we choose to retreat to defend the River, I was thinking of having all the troops near Moscow to fight, while all the reinforcement for the next 2 turn can go to defensive position along the river, and then get all the remaining forces (around Moscow) to retreat to the river after the 2 turns. After the River is secure, we would send all reinforcement for the next few turns to the Southern and Northern Front.

...

We will see how the new defensive line in the North and Central Front hold. If it does well, and we can hold ground until winter, I will start making some offensive plan. Our main goal should be to take Moscow and Leningrad back. I know its several turn before winter, but I wonder how much more the Germans will advance, if at all. They might want to consolidate defensive position to prepare for the mud/winter turns. While they will probably still push, I doubt they are going to try to take over the new defensive line. Unless they plan on taking the river and defending it for the winter.

Start building up forts as soon as you arrive on the new defensive line. And by that I mean the natural trenches that units do themselves. Put some Construction battalion to use in the area. We REALLY need to hold them there. If at all possible, adopt a deep defense strategy. Stack 2 or 3 division together in the front line, and have 1 division behind the stacks, and another behind that 1. I know we lost lots of troops and that might not be possible but at least try.[/quote]

[Colbert]

It is only turn 12. Leningrad and Moscow have not actually fallen yet. The Axis team are discussing advancing on Gorky and the Soviet team how to defend it.

Astonishing.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Zorch
Where is Steiner? His attack will set everything right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR5q0ajW8Ko

?

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: Zorch
Where is Steiner? His attack will set everything right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR5q0ajW8Ko

?

Steiner does not play the piano.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: Zorch
Where is Steiner? His attack will set everything right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR5q0ajW8Ko

?

Steiner does not play the piano.

[topeverest]

This is an awesome bit of cartography.

very impressive Axis Progress. That Piano is falling.

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

T012 Axis



For North AAR see fb.asp?m=4453558

[Beria]

T012 Soviet

Soviet South Commander
Tula ... still has all of it's Industry... I just did a calculation of the effective Industry we have left: the doomed Industry of Moscow, Kalinin, Leningrad and Poltava adds up to 28 Armaments and 17 Heavy Industry that is beyond saving. That means our effective Industry is 259 Armaments and 172 Heavy Industry.

I take the post by Stelteck as a reference to how much Industry must be saved.

Stelteck
Armament points needs are vastly overestimated by everyone, except in late 1941 for a brief period, you will never have enough men to use your armament point production. I think you can probably drop to 200, something like that.

Supply point (heavy industry) is another matter. As you save a lots of troops ... you will need a lots of supply points...I did a game once with 180 HI saved and it was a little low. I had briefly a supply shortage end 1942. Fortunately the new HI production factor in 1943 solved it.

in other words, I feel we are losing to much H.Industry in order to supply our future Red army.
I propose we give immediate priority for Heavy Industry, any that are at risk to the enemy should be evacuated at once and be given priority for transport, even above reinforcements for the Central front.

as for Tula, I propose to move 6 divisions to protect the approaches to Tula, 2 tank Div. 2 Cav. Div. and 2 Inf. Div, there is minimal risk encountering a motorize division in this area, at least for turn 13.

if a German unit get's in contact with the city (regardless if it can storm the city or not) the Industry will cost double to evacuate. normal cost is 4800 * 25 = 120 000!!, considering that the Soviets, especial now with out Moscow and Leningrad get like what? 100K-120K rail points? the normal amount is already high, double that and boom, 240 000 points, if we wanted to save the Industry, we would waste all of our rail points just to save less then half.

that is why I stress that we protect the outskirts of Tula until we evacuated most of the armaments. if we want a competitive 1942, we should save as much as we can...

...in my humble opinion, if we could save at least 15 armaments, 15*4800 = 72000, I say it would be [ac]ceptable to abandon the city.

...in the Tula case, its more a battle of Movement points rather then fire power. the Germans at the closest point, will have to cross a large river, so by the time they came close to the forest, the infantry could only do Hasty attacks

I'm counting on every mobile division being at work around Moscow. this plan is only for this turn, the city can be abandon in the next turn.

...I believe this will protect the Industry for little cost. I will have to do something similar for Voronezh, let's see if the cities of Yaroslavl, Ivanovo and Rebinsk (near the Rebinsk res.) can be protected for 2 more turns.)

Soviet Centre Commander
I can delay the retreat, but then I will not be able to form the defensive line in time as ordered, at least the southern part of it... On second thought may I recommend giving that order after the Fascists have made their move? It doesn't look like their forces are very strong in the Tula region, perhaps they will make only light advances there.

Soviet Supreme Commander
10th Army commander, Golubev, was replaced with General-Major Galanin. He was in charge of the central defense of Moscow ... ( the blue ones ). And he had suffered to many defeats ( 37 ). At the same time, the support level of the 10th Army was augmented to 7 instead of 3, in order to help Galanin achieve his objective and protect the HQ. So you will be able to choose a few extra support units for the 10th Army HQ.

[Beria]

T012 Soviet Air

[Beria]

Soviet Turn Around Times

Soviet Supreme Commander
And the turn is in !! So... Im guessing we should meet back here in 3 days. Thats the time it takes the Germans, Also if we can try to hurry this up next turn, it would be great, just in order to accelerate things.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: topeverest
This is an awesome bit of cartography.

Cheers! It is funny how wargmaing has led me on to learning how to use all these image editing programs! Have to give a lot of thanks to Crackaces, Wixit and now Beria for the things they have taught me and are teaching me now.

Feast your eyes on the one in the link below ("Turn 001 22-June-1941 to Turn 028 31-December-1941: A Retrospective Look at Economic War in 1941 - post 428)

fb.asp?m=4484496

I would say that is the one I am proudest of ever having done.

[Telemecus]

T013 Axis South Start of Turn

Our pocket in the south has been broken again

Worse the pocketers have become the pocketed.