Vichy problems

[tyronec]

This is what happened in both our HvH games.

British occupied Syria.
France surrendered - creating Vichy.
British units got kicked out of Vichy Syria.
It shows as 'Axis - Surrendered', which I think is correct. However the British units cannot move in.

There is also an issue with Vichy France.
In one game Axis invaded and it surrendered after Vichy was taken, should you not have to take ALL production centers ?

I tried a test game starting in '41. Axis invaded and got a 'Vichy France negotiated surrender' after Vichy was taken, is that correct ?

3 issues here Alvaro, would you have a look at all of them.

[AlvaroSousa]

I'll test out all the alternatives. Someone pointed out about Syria that it costs nothing for the Allies to take Syria from the French before surrender.

Just as there is no reason for the UK NOT to occupy Algiers.

So I just made it that the colonies went Vichy that's it and all units get kicked out. Especially with the new Gibraltar beachhead.

[AlbertN]

There is another problem, which may be gamey.

If Italy is active, and Germany sets up Vichy - for the turn it is German.
Italy can just ship (or well Germany but that requires to have Marseille as port pratically!) an Italian corp in Algiers (that is vacant as any French unit disappeared), and then French North Afrika remains Axis instead of going Vichy.

It would be correct that North Afrika goes Axis if Algiers has been regularly conquered by Axis when France was active.

Solution: Make Vichy being set up instantly.
I'd personally split Algeria from Tunisia in case Italy seized Tunis - they retain Tunisia.

[tyronec]

I'll test out all the alternatives. Someone pointed out about Syria that it costs nothing for the Allies to take Syria from the French before surrender.

Just as there is no reason for the UK NOT to occupy Algiers.

So I just made it that the colonies went Vichy that's it and all units get kicked out. Especially with the new Gibraltar beachhead.

The British units did not get kicked out of Africa in our game.

[AlvaroSousa]

That's why I changed the rules. It was too easy for Axis or Allies to gain access to these territories.

Now they just go to Vichy in the new scenarios period.

The way the interactions go with the units the units are setup a turn later. I am seeing about making it the same turn.

[tyronec]

Sounds good getting rid of those free take overs of the colonies.
Would be nice if they flipped to Axis if not garrisoned, as long as there is the chance of shipping some Italians out to them before the British take over.

[AlbertN]

Point is that proper MP games should be with the Italian Option from my perspective.
IF France undermans North Afrika to bring troops to mainland France and Italy gains these colonies before Vichy is established (IF Vichy is established) these remain Italians. (Or if in whichever way Germany does)

It's the tradeoff if France ships to France mainland troops defending colonies. It's a choice the Allied player can make. (Not that colony wise it's worth grand production tbh!)

[AlvaroSousa]

Technically if France abandons North Africa Germany doesn't have to accept surrender buy time and take out all of North Africa, take Gibraltar, then negotiate a peace.

[AlvaroSousa]

I see the surrender problem now

[AlvaroSousa]

Fixed

[hansondavid4]

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

That's why I changed the rules. It was too easy for Axis or Allies to gain access to these territories.

Now they just go to Vichy in the new scenarios period.

The way the interactions go with the units the units are setup a turn later. I am seeing about making it the same turn.

I agree with Cohen in that the nice part of the Italian Option is that it keeps the French honest in the Med. If you do as you propose there is no reason not to pull the French home for the fight.

I do not think the Common Wealth should be able to squat and occupy when Vichy is formed. They should be removed and it go Vichy. They should have to invade them as they historically did.

The Axis should be able to retain what the conquest before Vichy is formed. If they captured North Africa or Syria, then they should keep them. I again agree with Cohen on splitting Tunisia, Algeria and French Morocco into separate countries. These will be a tough slog for the Axis if defended.

If you are change the setup, just be sure the Allies have first crack at invading. The Commonwealth much seize Syria before the Axis can invade. If the Axis can establish a toehold in Syria, Egypt is toast.

The just don't Vichy if France abandons the Med is very compelling. Germany is under time constrains and grinding France to dust is detrimental to what they need to get done.

The fundamental problem I see with Vichy is that the Axis can create it and the violate it right away (either in North Africa or Metropolitan France. This basically invalidates the armistice they just signed. Some solution to the Axis declaring war on Vichy prior to the Allies declaring war might be to:
1) A declaration of war by the Axis on any Vichy country is a declaration of war on them all. Give the Commonwealth a bunch of Production and Manpower (Free French forces).
2) Make France a partisan Hornets nest (like Spain).

[AlbertN]

If Vichy is attacked by Axis all of its colonies instantly go Allies. That's more than enough considering they provide 4 units (1 in Syrya and 3 in North Afrika) to the Allies; plus the Algeria resource.
Partisans are already overrated by a huge immense shot in this game - no need to accrue them more.

[battlevonwar]

Vichy is an issue, you can DOW it right after you 'delete all the French Units' and sweep right through it. The Germans wanted the French disarmed and it's fleet to port. A Dow on Vichy(or it's colonies) should be a DOW on the whole. As well as a chance at the French Navy being captured, scuttled or turned over to the Allies.
Simplest though is to give the Allies more shipping...

[kennonlightfoot]

What I see happening but haven't done myself to see what all the gains are:
Germans take Paris and may have to move one unit down to occupy Vichy.
French offer Terms.
Germans accept terms which eliminates the French army.
Germans declare war on Vichy France. Capture Vichy again.
Vichy France surrenders.

Much easier than trying to conquer France without forming Vichy first.

[Michael T]

If the Germans DOW Vichy, the Brits get the French fleet. This is no small thing. 1 BB, 2 CA, 1 DD. And once Vichy falls these unit go in to the UK build cue. Still I think there should be some penalty for DOW Vichy in 1940 or 1941. Perhaps extra volunteers for the Free French. So a free UK unit with manpower boost.

[PanzerMike]

The Germans were not known for honoring pacts and agreements, but attacking Vichy right after signing the armistice would be....bad form [:D]

The French fleet going to the Allies is nice, but I agree that may not be enough a penalty for being so treacherous. Increased Free French forces makes sense.

[AlbertN]

Ideally WiF system is excellent where USA war entry is a variable and the more aggressive actions the Axis takes the quicker USA can join the war - with a variable.

In there Vichy can be collapsed the turn after its setting up - but it triggers USA reaction. (And Vichy fleet has a roll per ship unit to see what escapes and go Allies, what is scuttled on the spot and what is captured. With 60% chance per ship to get to the Allies - if they manage to escape from their ports. Just in case there is the Regia Marina or aerial interdiction - which is usually there if Vichy is to be seized).

[battlevonwar]

Germans made a special note on keeping as many French Men of age in servitude to keep them away from the possibility of being an issue. I'm sure many would "run," from France and join the banner considering a backstab.

ORIGINAL: Michael T

If the Germans DOW Vichy, the Brits get the French fleet. This is no small thing. 1 BB, 2 CA, 1 DD. And once Vichy falls these unit go in to the UK build cue. Still I think there should be some penalty for DOW Vichy in 1940 or 1941. Perhaps extra volunteers for the Free French. So a free UK unit with manpower boost.

[Majmac]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

If the Germans DOW Vichy, the Brits get the French fleet. ...

Historically, the French fleet did not voluntarily "go" to the British. Those in U.K. were boarded (some fatalities), those in North-West Africa were attacked and rendered too damaged to fight for the Nazis, and those in Egypt were surrendered to the British.
Churchill's decision to deal decisively with the French Fleet was bold, but necessary and was endorsed by the President of the U.S.A.

[Tejszd]

It took the French military some time to disband/turn over weapons, make it so they disband over multiple weeks and or move to Vichy.