After some reflection I have decided that I was wrong about the Germans having too many elites. I am asking that all US and USMC forces lose their elite status. No Commonwealth unit should be elite either.
Why you ask?
Well I figure in order to an Elite you must have surrendered in groups of 100,000 or more. That pretty much excludes all the allies but france and Russia, and includes all the German units.(the Japanese are excluded too by the way)
This way all the Afrika Korpse, 6th Army, and Army Group Center are included. Throw in the entire French Army and most of Russia too. I have seen the light.
thanks,
sven
[ June 17, 2001: Message edited by: sven ]
Elites.....
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Belisarius
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I agree that is why all German forces should be elite...Originally posted by Belisarius:
I don't get it. Please explain.
If this is an attemt of irony to point out that troops w/ large surrender numbers can't be called 'elite', it's lame.
Training. Equipment.
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
I said no US force was elite....
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Belisarius
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So the fog thickens...
German troops did, well up into '43, recieve better training (and in some cases, better equipment), than their counterparts. Regular troops as well as troops with 'elite' status.
Ofcourse did e.g. the US army have it's fair share of elites as well with excellent training. But what they (and Russia, and England, and...) DID have that the Germans lacked was a staggering amount of materiel and superb logistics. But I don't have to point that out, do I?
German troops did, well up into '43, recieve better training (and in some cases, better equipment), than their counterparts. Regular troops as well as troops with 'elite' status.
Ofcourse did e.g. the US army have it's fair share of elites as well with excellent training. But what they (and Russia, and England, and...) DID have that the Germans lacked was a staggering amount of materiel and superb logistics. But I don't have to point that out, do I?
Got StuG?
Agreed according to my criterion all German forces were elite....Originally posted by Belisarius:
So the fog thickens...
German troops did, well up into '43, recieve better training (and in some cases, better equipment), than their counterparts. Regular troops as well as troops with 'elite' status.
Ofcourse did e.g. the US army have it's fair share of elites as well with excellent training. But what they (and Russia, and England, and...) DID have that the Germans lacked was a staggering amount of materiel and superb logistics. But I don't have to point that out, do I?
It wasn't just training in general. The ability to progress to elite comes partially from the type of training. Early on the German's were able to work well in small isolated groups, they had been taught to think and react independently. Later the US, British and others followed suit. To not allow US Rangers and British Commandos to achieve Elite status would be very unreal.
As far as the German's go, the soldiers / pilots that didn't die saw a lot of war and became very proficent at their craft. I can think of a few Tiger commanders with 3 figure kill totals that give new meaning to the word elite.
As far as the German's go, the soldiers / pilots that didn't die saw a lot of war and became very proficent at their craft. I can think of a few Tiger commanders with 3 figure kill totals that give new meaning to the word elite.
"Good judgement comes from experience, and experienece----well... that comes from poor judgement."
Also according to my criterion none of those snivelling US forces were...Originally posted by Belisarius:
So the fog thickens...
German troops did, well up into '43, recieve better training (and in some cases, better equipment), than their counterparts. Regular troops as well as troops with 'elite' status.
Ofcourse did e.g. the US army have it's fair share of elites as well with excellent training. But what they (and Russia, and England, and...) DID have that the Germans lacked was a staggering amount of materiel and superb logistics. But I don't have to point that out, do I?
Seriously the ratings on the Gurkhas need looking at they were a bit more than elite Indian troops they were Elite worldclass troops
Maybe they could at least start in the Brit OOB so they have Brit basic values and national charcteristics to better Model them
Maybe they could at least start in the Brit OOB so they have Brit basic values and national charcteristics to better Model them
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Originally posted by Brummagem:
It wasn't just training in general. The ability to progress to elite comes partially from the type of training. Early on the German's were able to work well in small isolated groups, they had been taught to think and react independently. Later the US, British and others followed suit. To not allow US Rangers and British Commandos to achieve Elite status would be very unreal.
As far as the German's go, the soldiers / pilots that didn't die saw a lot of war and became very proficent at their craft. I can think of a few Tiger commanders with 3 figure kill totals that give new meaning to the word elite.
Wholeheartedly agree with you. Wehrmacht tank aces were 'elite'. So was a lot of the SS.
sven
Maybe Elite should mean any troops that can sucessfully amphibiously assault prepared beach defenses at least once?
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
US Troops managed to do it in Tunsia , didn't look to hard for real elite troops
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Brumm...Originally posted by Brummagem:
Anybody ever figure out were Sven was going with his original arguement...oh wait a minute....is that sarcasm I'm seeing....can't tell it's still a bit foggy.
I finally come over to the 'right' side of this arguement and this is the thanks I get? Obviously all the defeated Germany's forces were elite. I have seen the light.
so were France, Russia, and a lot of other MIGHTY NATIONS...