SAM Units- Do They Work Now?

[THW]

G'day,

I've been out of the wider TOAW gaming community for a while, so I don't know if this has been fixed. I remember that SAM units never really worked, with enemy aircraft normally flying around them with impunity.

I'm in the final stages of finishing a NATO-Warsaw Pact scenario for Central Europe, and as you can imagine, both sides have extensive SAM networks. I've added the units in game, but playtesting seems to indicate that they don't do much to affect the air battle. Am I wrong in this, or are SAMs still one of the few things not properly modelled in this game?

If so, any suggestions on how to duplicate the effect. The Warsaw Pact in particular tends to get savaged by NATO interdiction at the moment. I was thinking of additional units of obsolescent fighters with reduced ranges, Mig 15s etc, simply so something will have a go at the F111s and Tornados.

[larryfulkerson]

What's the name of the Scenario? Do you have the latest version of it? I seem to remember this being a problem with older versions of TOAW as well. You may need to mod your scenario by sliding the AA effectiveness to a more robust setting. Good hunting.

[THW]

G'day mate,

The scenario hasn't been uploaded yet, I'm putting the final touches on it and writing the player notes. It's a brigade/regiment level scenario, 10km hexes, 1 day turns set in Central Europe in 1989.

I already had AAA effectiveness at 200%, so I'm not sure that increasing it will be better. The main thing is that the SAM units don't engage, even when there's an air attack in the hex next door. I don't have a good answer, so I might just leave that element as it is, in the hope that a future patch addresses this.

Cheers.

[cathar1244]

THW, you may wish to check this against your SAM issues. Failed comm checks apparently prevent SAMs from engaging targets at a range of 1 hex or more.

Cheers

8.4.1.6. Force Electronic Support Level
(1-100%) - This represents the general electronic capability of the force: Radar, Electronic
Countermeasures, Signal Intelligence, etc. This characteristic is only visible in the Editor or the Expanded
Situation Report.

8.4.1.7. Electronic Support Checks
An electronic support check passes if a random number from zero to the friendly Force Electronic
Support Level is higher than a random number from zero to the enemy Force Electronic Support Level.
Default value of 33% is treated as a value of zero for this purpose. Only if the values are changed from
the default level does the above take place. (The feature was non-functional for years. Once fixed, this
qualification had to be made to avoid breaking existing scenarios).

8.4.1.8. Electronic Support Effects
Locations with HQ units, Air units, and units that move or fire are “noticed” at the beginning of the
following Turn if the enemy player makes an Electronic Support Check for the location. Combats
involving large numbers of units are affected by relative Electronic Support levels. Artillery, HQ, and Air
units can only support combats if they pass a Communication Check. Attacks with a large fraction of
units failing Communication Checks will take longer to resolve. Individual units and entire Formations
may be unavailable for orders (reorganizing) at the beginning of a Turn due to enemy Electronic Warfare.
Individual units may be unavailable if they fail Communication Checks, and Formations are more likely to
be unavailable if a significant proportion of attached units fail Communication Checks.

8.4.1.9. Communications Checks
The chance for a unit to pass a Communication Check is equal to the Force Communication Level. It
increases if the friendly Electronic Support Level is higher than the enemy Electronic Support Level and
decreases if the friendly Electronic Support Level is lower than the Enemy Electronic Support Level.
Unless the enemy Force has a much higher Electronic Support Level, or the Force has a very low
Communication Level, a unit can usually pass a Communication Check. Units that have not moved this
Turn have a higher chance of passing a Communication Check. Long range Anti-Aircraft units must pass a
Communication Check to fire on aircraft at ranges of 1 hex or more.

8.4.1.10. Force Communications Level
(25-100%) – This value is checked against a random number from 0 to 100 whenever:
• Unit and Formation statuses are determined,
• SAM units fire at long range, and/or
• Anti-Aircraft support or Artillery fires in support of Attacks and Defenses.

[erichswafford]

ORIGINAL: THW

G'day,

I've been out of the wider TOAW gaming community for a while, so I don't know if this has been fixed. I remember that SAM units never really worked, with enemy aircraft normally flying around them with impunity.

I'm in the final stages of finishing a NATO-Warsaw Pact scenario for Central Europe, and as you can imagine, both sides have extensive SAM networks. I've added the units in game, but playtesting seems to indicate that they don't do much to affect the air battle. Am I wrong in this, or are SAMs still one of the few things not properly modelled in this game?

If so, any suggestions on how to duplicate the effect. The Warsaw Pact in particular tends to get savaged by NATO interdiction at the moment. I was thinking of additional units of obsolescent fighters with reduced ranges, Mig 15s etc, simply so something will have a go at the F111s and Tornados.

I'm highly interested in the subject matter and am trying to resurrect some old WW3 scens, so if you figure this out, please let me know as well. For now, SAMs seem to just be window dressing. Did they ever work in TOAW3 or CoW?

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

THW, you may wish to check this against your SAM issues. Failed comm checks apparently prevent SAMs from engaging targets at a range of 1 hex or more.

Cheers

8.4.1.6. Force Electronic Support Level
(1-100%) - This represents the general electronic capability of the force: Radar, Electronic
Countermeasures, Signal Intelligence, etc. This characteristic is only visible in the Editor or the Expanded
Situation Report.

8.4.1.7. Electronic Support Checks
An electronic support check passes if a random number from zero to the friendly Force Electronic
Support Level is higher than a random number from zero to the enemy Force Electronic Support Level.
Default value of 33% is treated as a value of zero for this purpose. Only if the values are changed from
the default level does the above take place. (The feature was non-functional for years. Once fixed, this
qualification had to be made to avoid breaking existing scenarios).

8.4.1.8. Electronic Support Effects
Locations with HQ units, Air units, and units that move or fire are “noticed” at the beginning of the
following Turn if the enemy player makes an Electronic Support Check for the location. Combats
involving large numbers of units are affected by relative Electronic Support levels. Artillery, HQ, and Air
units can only support combats if they pass a Communication Check. Attacks with a large fraction of
units failing Communication Checks will take longer to resolve. Individual units and entire Formations
may be unavailable for orders (reorganizing) at the beginning of a Turn due to enemy Electronic Warfare.
Individual units may be unavailable if they fail Communication Checks, and Formations are more likely to
be unavailable if a significant proportion of attached units fail Communication Checks.

8.4.1.9. Communications Checks
The chance for a unit to pass a Communication Check is equal to the Force Communication Level. It
increases if the friendly Electronic Support Level is higher than the enemy Electronic Support Level and
decreases if the friendly Electronic Support Level is lower than the Enemy Electronic Support Level.
Unless the enemy Force has a much higher Electronic Support Level, or the Force has a very low
Communication Level, a unit can usually pass a Communication Check. Units that have not moved this
Turn have a higher chance of passing a Communication Check. Long range Anti-Aircraft units must pass a
Communication Check to fire on aircraft at ranges of 1 hex or more.

8.4.1.10. Force Communications Level
(25-100%) – This value is checked against a random number from 0 to 100 whenever:
• Unit and Formation statuses are determined,
• SAM units fire at long range, and/or
• Anti-Aircraft support or Artillery fires in support of Attacks and Defenses.

Do you know of any way to "de-bug" a scenario by examining log files (in this case, to see if the SAM unit is passing its comm checks)?

I really wish there was a flag where you could override all these calculations for specific units. For SAMs, you could simply make it a 100% chance they'll pass the comms test, thereby removing another variable. Things are complicated enough

[Hellen_slith]

For debugging scenes, and to examine SAM usage,

you might try using UBERUSER setting ....

is described in the op art HTML and (I think) in current manual

I am not on my TOAW computer ATM, but will try to find UBERUSER description in next few hours ....

[cathar1244]

Check the toawlog file after a turn ends with activity involving SAM units. It will be a lot of text, but if you scroll through it, you may find the actions with SAM units and comments that hint at what is taking place.

Check the formation settings for NATO SAM units if they are a separate formation. They may be too low and inducing re-organization.

Cheers