39 Scenario Balance Suggestions

[AlbertN]

What Alvaro said sussists - it's a game.
If Sea Lion is not viable at all, or it's a do or die move (Which translates in anyone attempting and failing tossing the game) it will never be done. Plus it's the only way to gain Spain support as it is now (Something I strongly disagree with).

UK to me seems quite fine in general and eventually the Soviets may struggle at the start but I am not that expert to determine.

[battlevonwar]

Russians get a lot of momentum in things in '42 but if things have gone very bad for them in '41 it's of little consequence.

[MVokt]

Sea Lion shouldn't be that easy. Historically, Germans did struggle with Norwegian navy when invading Norway, let alone the UK.

[AlvaroSousa]

One more suggestion. Set fleets in close ports with lots of AA. Use night moves to avoid German and and support attacks or destroy supply.

[Flaviusx]

Does night move avoidance persist into the opponent's turn? That is to say, if you put a fleet out there on night move, on the following player turn, will it continue to evade accordingly?

Because if no, this isn't all that helpful.

That said, parking the Royal Navy in London might have saved it in my last game. Duly noted for future reference.

[gwgardner]

ORIGINAL: MVokt

Sea Lion shouldn't be that easy. Historically, Germans did struggle with Norwegian navy when invading Norway, let alone the UK.

It doesn't have to be easy. In my current game for the UK I have:

1) avoided stripping the UK to send troops and air to Egypt, and no BEF to France;
2) built 2 interceptor and 1 tac bomber squadrons by mid-to-late 1940;
3) invested in raising the tech level of interceptors and tac bombers;
4) given supply/upgrade priority to the fighters to get them upgraded;
5) have all air on full support, to intercept any amphibious assault - if the Germans taunt my fighters into intercepting their fighter patrols, so be it;
6) have small naval patrols offshore - I have to be willing to commit the navy to protect the shores;
7) keep up a bombing campaign against German industry, so the Germans have to commit to building AA and using fighters there;
8) If the Germans want to overwhelm my fighters I hit their airfields.

I take losses, but so do they.

I don't know if that is sufficient, but my opponent has not yet dared to try SeaLion this time around.

For Norway, I use subs and naval patrols off the Norwegian ports, and commit the French navy to protecting Oslo. If the Germans position naval air in Denmark I withdraw the French fleet, but keep a close guard on the Narvik coastal area. If the Germans want to contest that, so be it. British divisions are waiting in port to occupy any port that the Germans aren't able to occupy.

I also found out that if French naval units flee to the UK before the fall of France, and no Vichy has been declared, those French ships are impounded and made part of the RN.

Warplan has so many options to try out before changes should be made. Keep the discussion going! Each problem may have possible solutions already in the game.

[murdock762]

I think the only way game will be balanced is have different initial setups for games vs AI and a different one for PBEM.

No comment on the balance in regards to PBEM.

For play vs AI, I think the allies need a much smaller starting force or slower economy right at the start.

[DTomato]

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

As Britain this is what you should be doing in 1939-1940.

Build escorts, land units, and 2-3 air craft. The land units can be divisions or small corps to garrison coast lines. Build 1 armor. you don't have to reinforce the units in your country just yet that are low.

Guard your upper coast with fleets to intercept invasions. Put a good unit in the port. 1 fleet of old BGs should do the trick. Put 1 bomber.

In the south line the coast. Sit your planes at max range to the coast so airfield bombings can only hit you without escorts. Put a backup fleet on either side of the island within 5 hexes of each potential beach with a 2-3 group intercept force. Keep it out of air sup range but have your air sup in range.

Make one beach a kill zone. Give them a place to land where they can go no where.

Now you have a northern defense, a southern defense, and a counter attack plan.

Africa is easy to defend. It is very hard for the Axis to push past El Alamein as it should be. Garrison Syria and Palestine on the ports and coast. Place a fleet to interdict the Italians and a bomber.

The most important part of all this is the following.
FIGHT FOR FRANCE AS HARD AS YOU CAN!!!!! The longer France holds out the better chance the UK has. Of course don't empty out the UK to defend France.

If you just give them France and not fight for it you deserve to be invaded. You should be able to hold off the Axis until the end of the summer.

Alvaro, I'm a bit concerned about what you're saying here. It sounds like for Britain to defeat Sea Lion, they have to carefully place their troops, fleets and aircraft and follow a certain build strategy. This is not going to be obvious to newer players, which means that we have the familiar problem of a handful of experienced players preying on the lesser folk.

It also suggests that Britain is ripe for invasion. This is simply not true: the Germans had neither sufficient seapower or airpower to invade Britain with a reasonable chance of success. If WarPlan's game system doesn't allow the Royal Navy to a reasonable chance of intercepting a German invasion, then we're looking at a fantasy WWII game like Strategic Command rather than a realistic simulation. Which is fine, but a little peculiar, given that WarPlan does have somewhat realistic simulation rules for factors like logistics.

Michael

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

ORIGINAL: MVokt

Sea Lion shouldn't be that easy. Historically, Germans did struggle with Norwegian navy when invading Norway, let alone the UK.

It doesn't have to be easy. In my current game for the UK I have:

1) avoided stripping the UK to send troops and air to Egypt, and no BEF to France;
2) built 2 interceptor and 1 tac bomber squadrons by mid-to-late 1940;
3) invested in raising the tech level of interceptors and tac bombers;
4) given supply/upgrade priority to the fighters to get them upgraded;
5) have all air on full support, to intercept any amphibious assault - if the Germans taunt my fighters into intercepting their fighter patrols, so be it;
6) have small naval patrols offshore - I have to be willing to commit the navy to protect the shores;
7) keep up a bombing campaign against German industry, so the Germans have to commit to building AA and using fighters there;
8) If the Germans want to overwhelm my fighters I hit their airfields.

I take losses, but so do they.

I don't know if that is sufficient, but my opponent has not yet dared to try SeaLion this time around.

For Norway, I use subs and naval patrols off the Norwegian ports, and commit the French navy to protecting Oslo. If the Germans position naval air in Denmark I withdraw the French fleet, but keep a close guard on the Narvik coastal area. If the Germans want to contest that, so be it. British divisions are waiting in port to occupy any port that the Germans aren't able to occupy.

I also found out that if French naval units flee to the UK before the fall of France, and no Vichy has been declared, those French ships are impounded and made part of the RN.

Warplan has so many options to try out before changes should be made. Keep the discussion going! Each problem may have possible solutions already in the game.

Respectfully, none of that would stop a determined Sea Lion. You haven't seen it done. I have, and despite piling the UK to the gills with troops.

I also see nothing here about escorts. That is a constant drain on the British treasury trying to keep them up to speed, because an early commitment of subs will in fact chip away at your merchant marine almost immediately.

[aspqrz02]

Historically the Germans lost a Heavy Cruiser to 19th century torpedoes and the rest of the invasion force was forced to turn back by 19th century artillery.

The Norwegian invasion was a close run thing.

Phil McGregor

[aspqrz02]

The Germans should get NO 'Phibs At Start ... they should have to BUILD them. If it were possible, and it doesn't seem to be, the cost for the GERMANS to build 'Phibs should be increased quite a bit.

This would be historically accurate. The Germans actually had NO 'phibs to invade Norway and used Warships and some Merchantmen ...

They actually didn't have any 'Phibs to do Sealion, either ... Rhine River Barges and River Crossing Pontoons lashed together plus small merchantmen.

As it is, German 'Phibs are equal to Allied 'Phibs in Overlord which is ridiculous.

Also note that ALL armies are WOEFULLY under strength (except the Netherlands) in the game, which is what my Historical ORBAT mod changes.

The game as it stands is more RISK than wargame, in the start forces sense, though it has excellent underpinnings.

Phil McGregor

[Flaviusx]

They only get 10 landing craft to start with.

But they are perfectly capable of building up to 60 by August or September 1940 and putting ashore two full corps, backed by the entire luftwaffe. 75 production and wait 3 months. So you put them in the build queue right around May, knock out France, and you are good to go. You almost certainly will have at least a month of clear weather to do this, and maybe more.

75 production isn't even half the German per turn production at this stage, assuming they have Poland, Denmark and the low countries. By this point Germany is approaching 250/turn. They actually outproduce the combined French and British economies at this point of the game.

During the winter, Germany builds a couple of mech and otherwise just pumps out aircraft and replacements and trucks. Since Belgium is gone, they are a half dozen hexes away from Paris in May of 40 and 4 mobile corps is enough to do the job, with airpower supplying the real punch.

[aspqrz02]

Keep the 10 LC at start, I think.

But increase the cost and time to build LCs to what it costs to build Transports ... 180 days, instead of 90, and 60 PP, instead of 15.

And I suspect that THAT is far too fast and far too cheap. But it should make Sealion as unlikely as it was historically.

This is what I will do in the Historical ORBAT mod.

Phil McGregor

[Michael T]

I always said amphib invasions were to easy and way too common in WP. But no one listened. Well better late than never.

I am in to my 5th PBEM now as Allied. Not one German has done France/USSR. It's always been France/UK.

[battlevonwar]

I go back to my original posting: The Use of a Port right after an Amphibious Invasion makes all this possible. People are talking about history when Ports should like Rails get damaged by such landings? Therefore to naval invade you would require that your HQ/Every unit had amphib points. Probably = to about 150 which Germany cannot even scratch together until probably July/Sept. of 1940? Which will cost her... Which will also require some sort of Poor Supply value from the Port.

This will also require the UK/Italy/USSR/USA to have enough points ready to finish the job? Not just land and expect a Free Port/Supply and free range?

P.S. For flavor make a chance the Port stays in tact! Which somewhat resembles history therefor people won'tleave them unguarded.