Greece

[jjdenver]

Has anyone been able to take out Greece by invading only through Albania after Paris falls in order to try to align Yugo? I guess it's also possible to enter through Bulgaria but the RN may interdict any German/Italian units trying to transport there I guess.

There is also an invade-able minor port in southern Greece but with a size of 2 it won't give much supply so any force there would have to be very small.

[tyronec]

I doubt it !
Greece can be tough going.

[jjdenver]

Thanks, and scenario notes displayed on first turn say Yugo will switch to allies in May 41. So does this mean most Germans will just directly conquer Yugo after France to prevent them entering on allied side? Or is diplomacy very slow in the game meaning Yugo may not ever enter at all?

And while I'm at it - is it fairly quick to diplo Spain to axis side or nearly impossible? I've no sense of what's possible and not possible with diplomacy - thus the question about Spain. Thanks.

[tyronec]

I don't think anyone is using diplomacy, it unbalances the game.
Yugo will stay neutral unless invaded.

[James Taylor]

Easy to diplo Spain or Yugo against the AI, even Portugal as the Allies, but playing a human is the only opponent in which diplomacy is a "fair" feature.

[AlbertN]

Greece is invadeable with adequate preparation.
It is not an easy task though, Axis needs quite the investment in amphibious stuff and the Royal Navy must not be around (but they can hardly be around all the time around Greece).

It's a cost - and it will demand large formations of bombers deployed and positioned and organized up. And airborne forces too.
And for Italy to have Rhodes secured (and usually stuffed with planes for what it can hold!)

[jjdenver]

Thanks, does this mean most PBEM games houserule out diplo? I'd be fine with that - just curious.

[murdock762]

Fairly easy to invade greece through Albania if you use German not Italian divisions. And the combined bombers from both nations can almost delete an Infantry division every turn

[Flaviusx]

I'm not inclined to do it in PBEM, because of British trickery. They can respond to this in force and make it a real pain. I could even see them knocking out Bulgaria, which down the line would otherwise supply the Axis with a fair number of garrison troops, but which starts with just a single weak corps.

The conventional approach via Yugoslavia is faster and makes such trickery far less viable.

[AlbertN]

If it's done early enough UK cannot exactly answer in grand force.
I've been in a PBEM game where UK tried to play fat and heavy in the Middle East / North Afrika early on and by beginning of '41 UK is pratically in German hands (They've litterally left 1 Fighter Unit in UK and sent all the rest of the RAF and ground forces in Egypt / Syria, they asked for it!).

Thus they'd need to invade Salonika or so if you invade via sea Athens and take it (and that also means you have a Medium Bomber in Rodes, and like 3 or so in Albania) and the Italian navy at the ready (Which can go and fight nicely if your planes first sing a lullaby to any enemy carrier closeby). It's a matter to be ready and prepared. (And in most cases it also means to have 1, better 2 corps plus a HQ for combat support with adequate AMPHs. I also fix a specialty there to add pushing power).

If the UK wants to counter-invade in the middle of the Luftwaffe, they're my guests, and I gain Yugoslavia as ally which provides big armies to man French ports. (Not that later on it will be a problem for the Allies to dislodge them. Their airpower will reduce to an abysmal number the combat factor of any selected unit they want out of the game.)

[Flaviusx]

Depends how you play the UK.

The way I play it, they have forces to spare for this. 2-3 corps. That's enough to drag things out in Greece, possibly past the April 41 deadline for getting Yugoslavia to flip Axis. They can do this and still lock down the ME and the UK itself.

I don't understand this "invade" talk. They just need to ship stuff over to friendly ports. Yes, Axis air can interfere with this, but the UK can afford to provide strong escort and sneak things through.

[jjdenver]

Is Greece worth taking by land after conquering Yugoslavia? Or production/partisans/expense isn't worth it?

[Flaviusx]

Athens is a VP location, so yes. This, admittedly, is the *only* reason to take Greece, but it's a good one.

[murdock762]

Regarding my prior post - that was refer to play vs computer. I should have been clear on that. Play vs human im not sure how viable it would be.

Also doesnt conquer Greece give rare materials resource? That was reason I captured. Yes it does also have a VP hex, but no nothing that helps your raw production and now you have 3 more ports to garrison.

And I didnt conquer yugoslavia, they will join automatically after greece falls.

[Flaviusx]

You do get 1 rare resource from Greece. That's +1% to production. But I think the cost of taking and holding Greece exceeds the benefit from a pure economic standpoint. It's just not worth the bother from this standpoint. What makes it worth doing is the VP point, which is relatively easy to take and hold.

[murdock762]

Going to have to disagree on benefits of take Greece. It might be a sub optimal use of units which could do more elsewhere, but 1% for an economy the size of Germany over dozens of turns is pretty substantial. And you get more then 3 free units from Yugoslavia join Axis so the garrison cost cant be totally disregarded, but isnt back breaking.

[AlbertN]

The main bonus of taking Greece without going through Yugoslavia, is Yugoslavia itself.

But there is another major factor that I feel no one mentioned yet.
Any minor left on its own devices will be potentially be jumped later on by the Allies and will be an easy base for further assaults.
It's way easier for the Allies to seize Greece in '42 '43 facing '39 corps there without air support or so, than to advance through the supply hell that is Lybia.
Once Allies have Greece their airforce is in reach of southern Italy in turn and can hop there.

[Flaviusx]

1% late in the game will be 5-6 points per turn. In the last two years of the war this might come out to 264 production over 48 turns. Over the course of the entire game you might get 400 points of production this way depending on when it falls.

You need a minimum of 3 divisions to hold down Greece, or 180 production, exclusive of upgrades. This doesn't count combat losses taken during the conquest.

It's very marginal. You could find better gains elsewhere. What tips it over is Athens being a VP point and an easy one.

[hansondavid4]

It is very doable if properly prepare before bad weather sets in (ideally by end of August/early September). The trickery proof way is to have at least two mechanized (armor or mech) units in Albania ready to roll. The airborne unit on the tip of the heel and an invasion capacity (preferably a German Corp but anything will do.

You pop the Greek unit on the west coast road and the mech roll almost to Athens (2 hexes out).
The airborne unit drops next to Athens and
the German Corp invade the southwestern port and move to within two hexes of Athens.
Push follow up Infantry as far down the road as you are able (split the lead Corp to get the extra hex of movement if needed).

You occupy 1 of the three hexes next to Athens and have forces adjacent to the other two hexes.

At the same time you are pushing elsewhere in the Med to pin down British forces.

If the British do not, you take Athens the second turn of the invasion.

If the British reinforce, you will have a three hex attack with two armor units without moving. He will not be dug in and will be destroyed (it will drain your efficiency and buy the Greeks a turn. Your follow up infantry will have to take over the assault on Athens. Killing a British Corp in the Med is a real bonus as they are usually short at this point.

This is expensive Cadillac version but worth it if the alternative is invading Yugo. An aligned Yugo give 20PP vs a conquest that give 6PP a turn plus a lot of troops and an interceptor.

If you dispense with the airborne assault it is cheaper (3 air is very expensive) but it can drag out. I'd always to the invasion even if its an Italian or a German Div with the rest of the Corp sea transporting in behind.

[ClanCochrane]

I have succeeded several times against the AI. Secret is to move all your aircraft to bombing range as well as a few good units into Albania ready to start the offensive immediately Paris falls. Quickly move some good German units to Albania via sea. With some good luck with weather, you should push the Greeks back. Bulgaria will throw its lot in for the kill. The Brits may support the Greeks with a unit or 2 but time will beat them. Yugoslavia, and all the Balkans join in the fight against the Soviets. Franco in Spain will usually join in as well. Russia doesn't stand a chance then. No worries about Balkan partisans