China and Japan

[gw15]

After playing both sides in MWIF numerous times I feel the Chinese front has become a LOT different than the original game due to the scale on the Asian map being the same as the European map. If the Japanese are unable to knock the Chinese down during the first 2 years it is basically over for the Japanese due to the very long front made worse when the Americans and CW enter the war they have to do so many naval moves to counter those two but also need to do land moves to react to the Chinese or even the Russians if they attack. This forces the Japs to pick a lot of Combined moves allowing only 3 lands moves for a front that is big as the European Russian front.
I would like to suggest that the Japanese Combined action limits be increased for land moves.
1939/1940 - leave as 3
1941 = 4
1942 = 5
1943 = 6
1944 = ?
1945 = ?

Those of you who played on the original Asian map probably remember the Japs only needed 3 land moves as the front was only 10 or so hexes. (I don't have access to the original map).
I welcome any comments.

[juntoalmar]

I agree. The change of scale of the map may affect the movements needed.

One question: are there more Chinese and Japanese land units in MWiF compared to WiF, or just the same spread through a bigger map?

[Ian R]

The IJA has a problem keeping things within HQ range and supplied (away from the coast); so do the Chinese/Americans. If that means very little happens in China, absent a buildup for an Ichi-Go style offensive, that sounds quite reasonable.

[Centuur]

The number of units is the same. But yes, the war in China becomes a tactical war, due to the low number of land units for the whole country. And that seems to be an advantage for the Chinese in late game.

A possible countermeasure might be to play without the additional cities in China. That will make the supply situation in China much worse for the Chinese.

[Courtenay]

However, with good Japanese play, I think the early game favors Japan. In particular, the Communists are very vulnerable.

[Centuur]

That's true, but if the Chinese survive (or Japan decides on a "sitzkrieg" in China), things are very, very bad for Japan with the unified map...

[gw15]

Hummm...maybe not playing with the extra cities would help. However, by 1943 every hex on the front in China has to have a Jap unit or the Chinese simply leak through and once they get behind the Japs its bad. If the Japs can only do 3 land moves they can't attack or pursue the breakthrough units.
Need more units or more moves.

[michaelbaldur]

take land action, or super combined.

[peskpesk]

MWIF optional house rules:

Limited Chinese action choice

Description:
Nationalist China can only choose take land impulse after Japan has done any one of below:
- Made a land attack on any Chinese (Both nationalist and communist) unit during the current turn or the previous turn.
- Has taken control of any Chinese (Both nationalist and communist) controlled hex during the previous impulse.

Reason:
The European scale map makes hard for Japanese. With the old map they could often manage by only doing 3 land moves; 1-2 on any front and 1-2 to block the Chinese with ZOC or presence. Now they have a hard time with many holes to plug so they can't attack or pursue the breakthrough units.
This option makes the historical stalemate in China more likely.

Historical Note:
The often poorly trained, under-equipped, under-supplied and somewhat disorganized state of the nationalist army made it hard to manoeuvre and attack with. Often -even with a pre build-up- Chinese offensive grounded to a halt, with the fighting became a stalemate with both sides suffering losses and making minimal changes in the front line.

[Orm]

Edit: Never mind. Read it wrong.

[brian brian]

“Gamers gonna game” is what is said about WiF China not acting like Chiang China patiently waiting for Uncle Sam to take out Japan so he can get back to his deadly serious War - the one vs. the Chairman.

I think a simpler solution is to junk the idea of a Chinese ‘player’ and simply subject the Nationalists to USA action limits, for one. Still lets the USA player game things just a little. But a little better than infinite Chinese Land impulses.

[gw15]

I like your idea. Or as a house rule based on current MWIF program make it so the Chinese have to pick the same Action as the US.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

“Gamers gonna game” is what is said about WiF China not acting like Chiang China patiently waiting for Uncle Sam to take out Japan so he can get back to his deadly serious War - the one vs. the Chairman.

I think a simpler solution is to junk the idea of a Chinese ‘player’ and simply subject the Nationalists to USA action limits, for one. Still lets the USA player game things just a little. But a little better than infinite Chinese Land impulses.

[paulderynck]

Elegant solution and easy to implement.

[juntoalmar]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Description:
Nationalist China can only choose take land impulse after Japan has done any one of below:

Sorry if the questions is silly but... doesn't the Nationalist China take land impulses all the time anyway?

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Description:
Nationalist China can only choose take land impulse after Japan has done any one of below:

Sorry if the questions is silly but... doesn't the Nationalist China take land impulses all the time anyway?

Yes and the suggestion is to impose restrictions on doing so, thus forcing Combineds, Passes or Air impulses in many cases.