Ports and Invasion too easy

[Michael T]

Bombers won't interdict naval unless at least 40% efficiency and 50% strength.

[MorningDew]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Bombers won't interdict naval unless at least 40% efficiency and 50% strength.

Modified above post to include an image. And turns out they did interdict, just no impact.

[AlbertN]

That's just the typical show of a Carrier Gladiator biplanes (as I doubt UK techs Carriers, at least I don't) giving a hefty beating to your planes. The 'Naval Air' loss it means they shot down 1 point of Carrier Air (which anyhow immediately regenerates itself for free).

Anyhow - one of the 'normal' situations of '41 when UK is not invaded itself by the Axis.

[Hairog]

We discussed the ease of invasions during Beta testing. I was particularly alarmed when my clever opponent used the German and Italian plethora of beaches and invasion points to constantly land suicidal attacks that were very effective. The suggestion at the time was to break up a bunch of corps into divisions and put them all over the map in vulnerable locations. It didn't seem like a good solution at the time and it still doesn't.

Please take another look at this Mr. Sousa.

[Hoyt Burrass]

ORIGINAL: Hairog
The suggestion at the time was to break up a bunch of corps into divisions and put them all over the map in vulnerable locations. It didn't seem like a good solution at the time and it still doesn't.

But I isn't that exactly what the Germans ended up doing?...low quality, coastal garrisons...Volksgrenadiers and Ost troops?

[AlbertN]

In '44 yes.

In '43? Not so much.

In '42? Hardly. '42 Garrisons were still regular divisions, not first pick divisions but certainly not ethnic or 'low tier' ones.

But that's beyond the point.

[MorningDew]

Not just about Germany, What about Vichy North Africa and Italy? Southern USSR? There are places I;ve seen significant invasions early impact the game.

[Hoyt Burrass]

ORIGINAL: AndrewKurtz

Not just about Germany, What about Vichy North Africa and Italy? Southern USSR? There are places I;ve seen significant invasions early impact the game.

True. Perhaps Italy needs divisions...And Vichy needs redeployment with divisions to cover ports. But I still think it too easy to project amphibious power...I mean I had to do something to take the pressure off of the USSR. [:D]

[Chocolino]

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

I oppose changes like this without lots of testing. Make it a long-term part of beta testing if you wanted to try such things.

For the official release, players should come up with tactics to keep the enemy from easy amphibious assaults. Naval air interdiction, patrolling subs, patrolling surface ships, sufficient garrisons ....

+1

Not saying the discussions and observations by many very experienced players above have no merit. Invasions may very well be too easy etc.

But if we make untested major changes every mini-release (4th digit version number) then there is a good chance that we will continue to experience unforeseen side-effects and the game balance swinging from one side to the other. At least that what I feel has been happening in the past updates.

[James Taylor]

Italy DOES need divisions! Al?

[AlbertN]

Italy needs normal Corps of 30, 20 and Division of 10 Health Points exactly like France.

Alternatively I'd alter France, Italy, Axis Minors into Armies of 30 that split in 15, unit wise. Like Yugoslavia.
Italy at the moment does not work well - low production is okay (admittedly abysmally low); but its logistic is way too low and 20 strong corps paired up with low experience simply cripples it.

[Michael T]

Have you actually read anything about the capabilities of the Italian armed forces in WWII?

I have to ask because you seem oblivious to the facts.

[Flaviusx]

The Italian binary division was junk. And for this you can blame Mussolini. He wanted lots of divisions, and got them by watering them down. The game properly reflects this via the weak Italian infantry corps.

[AlbertN]

I am not oblivious. I am actually Italian myself and I consider myself quite knowledgeable of WW2 in general.

Italy has not exactly performed differently than France or other Axis minors to put it down at grand lines. Actually French troops even had better equipment. (They had better equipment than the Germans, heck!)

IF Italy has the production (gained, lent lease, whatever) they could equip more troops (armies, etc). They're still 40% experience to begin with, exactly like France, or Romania, or Hungary.
Their HQ are in general inferior to the British counterparts as well - I've not complained about that.

Problem was the same as France in most cases, leadership, low reaction, long chain of command, scarce communications, etcetera. That translates in Experience in Warplan.
Production is what translates in equipment for men. (Health Points of units, and how many and which units are fielded).
Italy has a low research power as well and start with all '39 techs except Naval (For which they've no units anyhow!)

EDIT as Flavius added:

Technically other nations got to a binary system for divisions later on. German Motorized divisions were binary as well!

The Pariani Reform was suited and shaped not to dilute divisions but 'on the paper' to have a more flexible chain of command with lighter divisions more able to operate individually.
That was done with the forecast of potential wars Italy could get pitted into - and the main antagonist envisioned was Yugoslavia first, and France next. Pratically alpine territories similar to the WW1 experiences Italy had and that was anchored to.

BUT I'll put it down to the gameplay perspective.

'Stacking' here envision that a hex, no matter the size of the hex, be it Fortress Gibraltar, tiny Malta, or a full hex of Russian Steppes or Padania's fields can take up to 30 HP of troops (36 in case of Soviets, human waves!).

In other games stacking goes with units. In WITE that some of you know, you can mix an Italian division with a German one for instance. And the same is for countless of other games where multiple units can stack together. Some games allow merging of Italian+German units into 'mixed forces' units. (Totaler Krieg for example, tabletop game).

In Warplan though Italy is the only nation that is hindered by having its basic unit capped at 20 strength. Which is like saying, in a hex Italian troops and equipment occupy more space than others.

The point is 'how many troops can I stuff in a hex?'. That's 30 HP. The cap to 20 HP corps is not justified and unwarranted for.

That is a point about gameplay design. Exactly as in WITE a player can choose if to leave 1 Italian division, or a full stack of 3 of them in a frontline hex. Or keep them as antipartisan duty.

Thus, the perspective is that in a hex, 30 HP of Italian infantry equals to X divisions, whereas if they are German or British, divisions could by Y. Still 30 HP per hex.

Otherwise it's like saying, in WITE if you have an Italian unit in a hex, your stacking drops to 2 units in that hex. (Ontop of your Italian unit being a low quality piece!)

[Michael T]

For the life of me I can't recall the Italians having anything but military disasters bar two instances. They successfully opened up a supply route north of Bir Hakeim for Rommel in the battle of Gazala which saved his DAK and the Frogmen that attacked the RN at Alexandria. If they had any other significant successes please enlighten me.

[Michael T]

I think you want Italy to be something it was not and could not have been under Mussolini and the Fascists in WWII.

[AlbertN]

I don't think you get my point.
So, since Italy did not had a grand list of successes - neither France did. Let's get France to have 20 strong corps too? Hmm...
Oh. UK neither had ground successes til like... El'Alamein. Let's set them with 20 strong corps til mid'42 maybe. And give to them a 30 strong Army alone for the BEF in '39. (Like soviets start with 2 armies)
Good way of reasoning (at least -not- from my perspective).

[James Taylor]

There were instances of Italian units giving a good accounting of themselves specifically in N. Africa especially in conjunction with German formations, Ariete being one.

[Michael T]

Instances of minor successes, yes. But few. *Significant* success in the vein of a strategic level game? No, bar the two I mentioned.

[LiquidSky]

The Italian Corp in Russia performed okay for what it had to face.

Only the infantry corps have the size 20. The mountain corp is size 30 as well as the mech and armour.

So you are not as limited as you think.