Understanding Victory in PBEM

[Michael T]

During the game each side and each country on each side score
victory points by capturing and holding objectives. Objectives can
be viewed in the War Panel. A side that scores the greatest number of
victory points by the end of game and still has a major power that is
not conquered wins the game. Victory is also scored per individual
country. If Italy takes more territory and holds out later, it can win
the game for itself more than Germany. This allows the game to be
played as a team or as individual victory.

From the manual, pg 108.

@Alvaro

Can you explain exactly how victory is determined in PBEM game.

As we have essentially Axis V Allies.

But VP are scored by Germany and Italy for the Axis. And for the Allies by UK, France, USSR and USA.

From reading the manual my understanding would be that at game end all Axis and Allied VP simply totalled and the higher score is the winner. Is that correct?

Since France and Italy may surrender before game end what happens to those VP accumulated before surrender?

Finally, and I have asked this before. Can we get a turn by turn total VP tally for the Axis and Allies that is reported each turn. Because at the moment I see no other way than to use a spreadsheet to try and keep track of who is actually in front at any given time.

As the Allied player I can see an individual score for each Allied power. But not for France once it is conquered.

I would like to see the current Allied total (including France) and also the current Axis total.

[AlvaroSousa]

The country VPs are mostly for show. You lasted longer than history or shorter.

The main victory is the alliance victory. Whichever side has hit their goals.

I'll see what I can do about totals.

[Michael T]

Can you please explain it Alvaro.

Ok I get Alliance Victory. But what is that?

I see a victory level for Germany and Italy. So by 'Alliance Victory' do you mean, in a mathematical sense, the VP required for Germany + Italy = Axis Total

So for example for the Axis to get a minor victory they need a total of 3276 (Germany) + 648 (Italy) = 3924 (Axis minor victory)

Is that right?

If so what happens when Italy surrenders? Is the required total still 3924? Do the accumulated Italian VP still count?

If an Alliance hits it's total before game end what happens?

Could you perhaps write a paragraph explaining exactly how it all works for a two player PBEM game. Please.

EDIT:

Having a very clear understanding of how victory is achieved in two player PBEM will also help with game balance discussions.

[Michael T]

Alvaro, can you confirm for me the following.

Axis total VP required for minor victory = 3924, for major = 4708

Allied total VP required for minor victory = 3489, for major 4186

Those are the totals for Germany/Italy (Axis), and UK/France/USA/Russia (Allied).

My understanding would be that the totals don't change with either the surrender of France or Italy. And that the VP accumulated by either of those two still count in the total current amount, that is if they surrender the VP are not lost.

[Michael T]

Sorry one more question.

Are the VP scored by neutral powers (before they join an alliance) still counted towards the grand total for the alliance?

For example, are the Italian VP scored while she is neutral still added to the Axis total? Same goes for the USA and Russian VP while they are neutral. But for the Allied total.

[AlvaroSousa]

There are 56 locations
Minor neutral nations don't add to anyone.
Major neutral nations add for their eventual side's total.

The Axis total must exceed the Allied total AND have one major power left at the end of the game.
The Allied is the same. But it's pretty easy for the Allies to have a major power left.

A side automatically loses if all its major powers are knocked out. So the Allies can win simply by forcing surrenders from Germany and Italy. The Axis can do that but they have to take the USA.

Ideally a game goes to the very last turn where the last attack is to take Berlin. That is the best game.

Probably 99% of the time who the winner is will be determined well before that due to different skill levels.

Individual scores don't matter for total victory. The system is a new way to do things to prevent Sitzekriegs which I see so often in WIF games. Germany takes France, Spain, Gibraltar, Egypt. Does a 1942 Barbarossa just to the river line. Now sits there doing nothing for the rest of the game. Very difficult to beat as the Allies and a very BORING game. The victory system encourages attacking. It is experimental. If it doesn't work here I will go back to simple victory in WarPlan 2.

That's it. Basically if Germany does pretty historical and is not conquered by the end of the game it will be close on who wins.
OR you will see a blow out by the Axis in an all out Barbarossa killing Russia.

[Michael T]

OK so if I understand you.

If no side is completely surrendered the winner is the side that accumulates the most VP at game end?

So if Axis get 3500 and the Allies 3501 then the Allies win?

Please can you add a running total that both sides have access to during the game as it progresses.

[Michael T]

I like the essence of the system you describe. It's needs some polishing though.

Two points.

1. Having 1 more VP than the other side should not earn you a victory. I would suggest a margin of >10% gives a win.

2. The VP locations and values could be refined. Some VP locations should be more valuable than others. Some should be removed and others added in place.

[AlvaroSousa]

They have to achieve their victory condition if no side is conquered so games can be draws. By the math games shouldn't have both sides achieving a major victory at the same time. If one side has enough points the other should not. My math can be off of course.

[Michael T]

The Axis total must exceed the Allied total AND have one major power left at the end of the game.
The Allied is the same. But it's pretty easy for the Allies to have a major power left.

Sorry Alvaro but you confuse me. Above you said that the Axis total must exceed the Allied total.

Then this:

They have to achieve their victory condition if no side is conquered so games can be draws

So which is it?

Do they need to achieve a certain level of points OR just be ahead of the other side?

If a level is needed what is it?

Because all we players see is levels for individual countries. No total for Axis or Allied is visible.

Honestly, apart from conquering the Axis completely, as an Allied player I still have no idea what I need to do to win the game.

[James Taylor]

Al, Michael T is on to something here. In tournament or league play where there are multi-players per side it would be advantageous to the legacy of WP for players to be awarded a winning or losing condition based upon points.

This could be just like what golfers accumulate as they play to the culmination of a year of tournaments in the Fed Ex cup and get the $10 mil 1st prize.

And hey, second ain't so bad either![;)]

[AlvaroSousa]

My apologies. Too many rules too many posts.

The major/minor are for individual country victories. A little trophy to say hey I did better than history and held these many VPs.

But for game victory it is who has greatest points and has a country still alive for a side to win.

[Michael T]

Thank you. I understand now.

As I said it would be good if a running tally could be visible to both players.

BTW, take pleasure in that if no one thought your game any good we would not bother posting about it. It's the best game I have played since WITE. And to be honest I think I enjoy WP more.

[AlvaroSousa]

I will add running totals and thank you. I forgot who I told this to. I believe it was a forum poster who was complaining about other posts.

It's good everyone is arguing over rules. It means they like the game. If there was silence I would know my game sucked.

[LiquidSky]

Shhh! The game is on!
[:D]