Axis Sealion strategy.

[Almeron]

Let's not turn a balance issue, into a wishlist.
I'm not care where axis minors goes, but the sealion is a major issue, because that shot down the game, in 1940.

[AlvaroSousa]

I am looking to update the beta today. I was doing it 2 days ago but this discussion gave new ideas and I had to think about them. Also had too many family chores to do so I could properly test the code modifications.

[Uxbridge]

Interesting discussion. Frankly, I know too little about the naval aspect of the game to plunge into the deeper issues at hand, but it seems risky to fiddle with the economical system and other things simply to solve a minor problem, unbalancing the game as it may do.

Wouldn't a quick solution to the problem be to simply give the Germans the November sub at start, somewhat reduced in combat ability, and add 20 landing ships to the queue, with launching date September 1940. This way Germany can invade Norway with the 10 LS that is at hand, and will get the additional 20 at a time when they were historically assembled. There's no way to produce a large amount of landing ships, since the queued production is now blocking the available shipyards to do it. If Germany will try anything with UK before late autumn 1940 (when it's probably too late), they will have to do with whatever LS that are at hand or rely on airborne troops. Similar procedure is taken to also delay the Italian invasion capability. This will, of course block any attempt to expand the uboat forces early.

In a longer prespective, more fundamental changes to the whole invasion question should be considered, but this will solve Seelöwe for now.


I don't think I have played a single game where invasions could be made good in all aspects.

[battlevonwar]

Take your time, it's best to get something right the first time and though you can follow some of our advice it's best to follow your instincts. That way you don't get yourself in a position that pushes too far one way or the other.

Many games take ages to get balanced. It's just growing pains.

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I am looking to update the beta today. I was doing it 2 days ago but this discussion gave new ideas and I had to think about them. Also had too many family chores to do so I could properly test the code modifications.

[aspqrz02]

The real world problem is that the Germans didn't actually *build* any 'Phibs ... they ripped close to 1000 Rhine River Barges from their economy to use.

The problems with this, in the real world, were several fold ...

* The Barges were totally unsuitable. Swamped by low chop, common in the Channel and North Sea. So slow they required 24+ hours to make the one way crossing ... so 100% exposed to the RAF in broad daylight and the RN sortieing south at night (a DD's wake on a fast pass by was calculated to be enough to swamp them)

* The removal of the Barges from the economy had SEVERE economic effects ... they were a key element of moving goods and raw materials around.

There really isn't a realistic way of modelling this in WarPlan ... the best that you can do is increase the time required to 'build' them and massively increase the cost ... both of which will (and SHOULD) gut German preparations for anything unimportant like, oh, BARBAROSSA ...

If it were possible, the German economic multiplier should be reduced *considerably* while the 'Phibs are building and while they remain unused ... and only recover slowly after they *are* used.

On top of that, naval and air interception of *German* 'Phibs (given what they actually were) should be AUTOMATIC, given what they were, in reality. But not Allied 'Phibs, as they were an entirely different kettle of fish.

But any of those things would make Axis fanboys unhappy, even if possible.

Phil McGregor

[James Taylor]

[quote]ORIGINAL: aspqrz02

The real world problem is that the Germans didn't actually *build* any 'Phibs ..

Yes but they could have!

There really isn't a realistic way of modelling this in WarPlan ... the best that you can do is increase the time required to 'build' them and massively increase the cost ... both of which will (and SHOULD) gut German preparations for anything unimportant like, oh, BARBAROSSA ...

Yes there is. If you limit the shipyards in the beginning then the Germans will require 490 days to build an amphibious capability.

So no Sealion until 1941, as it should be.

[aspqrz02]

Of *course* they COULD have ...

But the fact that they DIDN'T ... especially when the plan they actually used was so damaging to their economy ... is a clew to WHY they didn't.

You want Germany to actually build ACTUAL 'Phibs?

Fine. Quadruple building time and cost. For a start. AND make the 'hit' on the German economy even bigger.

Do you understand WHY they didn't simply build actual 'Phibs?

They require STEEL. The Germans, historically, didn't have ENOUGH steel (even with imports, and even with conquests) and, so, Goering was placed in charge of allocating what there was. The Luftwaffe, strangely, got a fair chunk. The Heer got most of the rest. The Navy? They got the leftovers ... and, since warships, even amphibs, take a LONG time to build in the real world (far longer than in WarPlan), and there was no planning for a Sealion invasion until 1940, they built some SS, some DD and a few CA or BC, but bugger all really.

So, IF you want to build Amph as Germany, fine, it's not just shipyard space that's the issue, its the diversion of resources from the oh so unimportant army and airforce ... hence the minimum suggested QUADRUPLE increase to build time and production cost.

But, like I said, Axis fanboys aren't the slightest interested in real world constraints.

Phil

[Michael T]

And then there is the total lack of LST's by Germany for Amphibious landings by Tank Corp.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Ship,_Tank

It's utterly ridiculous that the Germans can land Panzer Corp on a beach in 40/41.

Axis armor should only be able to debark in ports.

[battlevonwar]

The British can Amphibiously invade Germany with several tanks in 1941 if they want. If they wanted they could in 1940. They could even do it in 1939. This isn't history this is a game.

ORIGINAL: Michael T

And then there is the total lack of LST's by Germany for Amphibious landings by Tank Corp.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Ship,_Tank

It's utterly ridiculous that the Germans can land Panzer Corp on a beach in 40/41.

Axis armor should only be able to debark in ports.

[aspqrz02]

Actually, in the only REALISTIC Sealion plan, the one made before Hitler told the Navy to NOT tell the Army how ludicrous and completely impossible their fantasy plans were, the Navy planned to land, IIRC around a dozen tanks from Rhine River Barges by the simple expedient of grounding them as close to shore as possible then BLOWING THE BOWS OFF (i.e. strictly a one way trip) and the Tanks, with river wading attachments, blindly driving underwater towards the beach ...

Good luck with that, I say!

As for unloading at Ports, Dover couldn't handle tanks at the time (if ever during the war) ... lack of cranes and, more importantly, actual WHARF SPACE. Ro-Ro ships didn't exist back then, so this was an actual limiting factor.

In fact, NONE of the SE ports the Germans targetted (for the SECOND wave, mind, NO ports were targetted for the FIRST wave!), had that sort of capacity.

The Germans would have had to take Southampton ... which would have taken a TWO DAY Barge trip to get there by 'barge-amphibs' ... or take it by land, with no supply.

The Germans planned to resupply the SINGLE CORPS equivalent they intended to land in the FIRST WAVE ... TWO WEEKS LATER!

The Fantasy plans created by the Heer for landing multiple Infantry Corps and at least one entire Panzer Corps in the first wave were never more than that ... a FANTASY.

The fact that they are possible AT ALL in WarPlan is a serious flaw ... unless you're an Axis fanboy or see WarPlan as a glorified game of RISK.

YMMV.

Phil McGregor

[aspqrz02]

Of RISK, for Axis fanboys, evidently.

Phil McGregor

[Michael T]

The British can Amphibiously invade Germany with several tanks in 1941 if they want. If they wanted they could in 1940. They could even do it in 1939. This isn't history this is a game.

I say no faction should be able to invade beaches with Armored Corp until late 1942. So no argument from me on the equally absurd ability for the Allies to land Tank Corp in the early war period.

As for your second point. Well I think this is going to be an ongoing issue with WarPlan. Yes it is a game. But it is based on historical capabilities of WWII.

And no level of abstraction can forgive letting players invade with tank corp in the early war period. I suggest that this crazy ability for the Germans and Allies to land tank corp enmass is why to there is so much angst about sealion.

I can live with 2 or 3 INF corp storming the beaches in 1940/41 if they evade interception. But Panzers running amuck from beachheads in 1940 is sheer fantasy. And does not belong in any game that is representing as WWII.

[Michael T]

Yes, it is a serious flaw. And Alvaro would give the game a great step forward and add weight to it's credibility as a *WWII* game if he corrects this anomaly.