A German Lesson From Pola
As I’m busily losing the rest of the war (early Rome & Tuscany really, really hurts), a rare bright spot for the Germans. Which points out a technically useful lesson:
The Germans benefit greatly from interior lines. For the allies, every move has to be planned in advance for amphibs, advance at marching speed, or wreck the rail network by putting units on it. Changing theaters takes a months by the time all the withdrawing, refitting, and re-approaching the front occurs.
The Germans, in contrast, can shift combat power virtually any where on the continent in two weeks. In the case of Pola, units that were bound for France or doing double duty while refitting and securing key rear area hexes were put on trains and had established a line by the second week. The level bombers I was comfortable committing (gotta save a little to keep other invasions honest) flew down from Germany and were flying missions the same turn. The allies just don’t have that kind of agility.
All of which places more light on just how badly I screwed the pooch when I didn’t have a reserve formed earlier. The allies can (and as Loki routinely demonstrates) will gain momentum at some point on the front. It doesn’t matter how strong it is; if the allies are willing to focus and pay, they’ll start moving. Your ability to move forces to blunt that steam roller is far more important prtnant than being 5% tougher across the line.
1943 GC: Loki (Allies) GloriousRuse (Axis)
Moderator: MOD_WarintheWest
T38-9 - Leaning on Pisa
T38_T39 – 18/25 March 1944
I've run these turns together as both saw heavy rains in N Europe. I'd reduced the loss to the v-weapons back to -2, but no doubt the things will breed while I am not culling them.
In Italy, on T38 not much happened and 15 AAF refused to fly over the Alps in any case.
For T39, all my heavy and 2 engined bombers attacked at Pisa. Hurricanes did interdiction attacks on what appeared to be their reserve. Was surprised at the number of German fighters who appeared – especially as I had fighters to spare this close to the front lines.
Despite all the pre-attack bombing, attack only just succeeded.
US tanks then swatted aside the reserve line (this too had been heavily bombed) and my enthusiastic New Zealanders pushed up.
I'll keep on with this 5 Army offensive for a while. Should take Lucca soon. Most of the formations involved I want to keep in the Mediterranean theatre in any case.
Taking Pisa brings Livorno into full use – helps a lot with moving units off the front line for other theatres, before it was a one turn rail journey back to Naples, a turn in Naples and then off by sea.
At least next week, I'll be able to bomb again. Do hope the Red Army is making the most of all that late snow. The front is only 6 hexes from Ploesti (which I've not yet managed to bomb).
All my French invasions are ready, secondary forces organised around the larger ports, still some stuff in Italy I want in the UK, but these are very much for when the battle zone opens up a bit.
Other small bits of preparation. Converting some of my remaining FB-F to Mustang IIIs. Some are assigned to BC (I'll start daylight bombing soon [1]), others to FC as it extends my AS range deep into the Reich.
Don't overlook this CW model, its basically the P51 so you get range and hitting power. Then keep the Spitfire formations for shorter range missions.
[1] Its a myth that BC only bombed by night. This was adopted for pragmatic reasons (high losses in daytime) by 1941 and retained due to ingrained doctrine (by 1944 they had invested a lot in this approach both in terms of tactics and plane design), but from mid-44 they did a lot of daytime raids over Germany.
Basically the clear loss of the Luftwaffe's effectiveness removed one reason to bomb by night. Linked to this, the LL Mustangs gave them an effective escort aircraft for day missions quite deep into Germany. Harris stuck to night bombing for many raids as he was convinced it was effective (by then everyone else knew all he was doing was flattening German cities with any military targets hit almost by accident).
I've run these turns together as both saw heavy rains in N Europe. I'd reduced the loss to the v-weapons back to -2, but no doubt the things will breed while I am not culling them.
In Italy, on T38 not much happened and 15 AAF refused to fly over the Alps in any case.
For T39, all my heavy and 2 engined bombers attacked at Pisa. Hurricanes did interdiction attacks on what appeared to be their reserve. Was surprised at the number of German fighters who appeared – especially as I had fighters to spare this close to the front lines.
Despite all the pre-attack bombing, attack only just succeeded.
US tanks then swatted aside the reserve line (this too had been heavily bombed) and my enthusiastic New Zealanders pushed up.
I'll keep on with this 5 Army offensive for a while. Should take Lucca soon. Most of the formations involved I want to keep in the Mediterranean theatre in any case.
Taking Pisa brings Livorno into full use – helps a lot with moving units off the front line for other theatres, before it was a one turn rail journey back to Naples, a turn in Naples and then off by sea.
At least next week, I'll be able to bomb again. Do hope the Red Army is making the most of all that late snow. The front is only 6 hexes from Ploesti (which I've not yet managed to bomb).
All my French invasions are ready, secondary forces organised around the larger ports, still some stuff in Italy I want in the UK, but these are very much for when the battle zone opens up a bit.
Other small bits of preparation. Converting some of my remaining FB-F to Mustang IIIs. Some are assigned to BC (I'll start daylight bombing soon [1]), others to FC as it extends my AS range deep into the Reich.
Don't overlook this CW model, its basically the P51 so you get range and hitting power. Then keep the Spitfire formations for shorter range missions.
[1] Its a myth that BC only bombed by night. This was adopted for pragmatic reasons (high losses in daytime) by 1941 and retained due to ingrained doctrine (by 1944 they had invested a lot in this approach both in terms of tactics and plane design), but from mid-44 they did a lot of daytime raids over Germany.
Basically the clear loss of the Luftwaffe's effectiveness removed one reason to bomb by night. Linked to this, the LL Mustangs gave them an effective escort aircraft for day missions quite deep into Germany. Harris stuck to night bombing for many raids as he was convinced it was effective (by then everyone else knew all he was doing was flattening German cities with any military targets hit almost by accident).
T40 - Fooling around in April
T40 – 1 April 1944
Well despite my lack of attention, the V-weapon situation is not too bad.
France is all transport links and launch sites. 8 AAF is sending the Liberators (with 430 escorts or P51s on AS) to the Baltic, the other raids are Hannover again and some smaller targets in the Rhineland. BC is doing the Ruhr by night and Stuttgart by day (using the Mustang escorts), 15 AAF is popping up to bomb the tank production at Steyr.
FC is also pushing its AS deeper into the Reich.
In Italy, all connected to 5 Army's offensive.
So, BC at the Ruhr was a decent set of results (mo German fighters), Stuttgart got off lightly.
8 AAF had fun up on the Baltic as its massed escorts and the AS went hunting the Luftwaffe. Hannover got hammered (it now has a hangover). The Rhineland bombing added to the overall damage.
Now I have the long range fuel tanks, my P-51s can go anywhere, in large numbers. So in addition to the close escorts over the Baltic, this lot went a hunting. Usual mindset, I'll trade 1-1 losses all the way to Berlin.
Picking one out in detail, AS is designed to look for action, I'm at an altitude I want to be, the Bf-109s in particular start to lose effectiveness this high up.
Other raids. 2 Tactical Air did its job well, 9 AAF proved to be more interested in bombing the Channel Islands than Cherbourg, 15 AAF worked over Steyr. Again note how much the fighter battle has suddenly shifted my way.
With the new fuel tanks, I'm no longer shedding the escorts short of the target.
On the ground, Lucca is taken, as usual preceeded by a massive bombing campaign.
Well despite my lack of attention, the V-weapon situation is not too bad.
France is all transport links and launch sites. 8 AAF is sending the Liberators (with 430 escorts or P51s on AS) to the Baltic, the other raids are Hannover again and some smaller targets in the Rhineland. BC is doing the Ruhr by night and Stuttgart by day (using the Mustang escorts), 15 AAF is popping up to bomb the tank production at Steyr.
FC is also pushing its AS deeper into the Reich.
In Italy, all connected to 5 Army's offensive.
So, BC at the Ruhr was a decent set of results (mo German fighters), Stuttgart got off lightly.
8 AAF had fun up on the Baltic as its massed escorts and the AS went hunting the Luftwaffe. Hannover got hammered (it now has a hangover). The Rhineland bombing added to the overall damage.
Now I have the long range fuel tanks, my P-51s can go anywhere, in large numbers. So in addition to the close escorts over the Baltic, this lot went a hunting. Usual mindset, I'll trade 1-1 losses all the way to Berlin.
Picking one out in detail, AS is designed to look for action, I'm at an altitude I want to be, the Bf-109s in particular start to lose effectiveness this high up.
Other raids. 2 Tactical Air did its job well, 9 AAF proved to be more interested in bombing the Channel Islands than Cherbourg, 15 AAF worked over Steyr. Again note how much the fighter battle has suddenly shifted my way.
With the new fuel tanks, I'm no longer shedding the escorts short of the target.
On the ground, Lucca is taken, as usual preceeded by a massive bombing campaign.
T41 - sort of an interlude
T41 – 8 April 1944
For the most part decided to repeat last turn's bombing pattern – my logic at this stage of the campagin is 2-3 raids will push a sector into heavy damage, raid and then move on allows the repairs to take place.
Most did enough damage to justify the raid. If I can believe the report 15 AAF has added to the damage to German medium tank production.
On most sectors, no sign of the Luftwaffe, here and there some one-sided encounters.
Main concern from my point of view is the high pilot:plane loss rate on my side.
Nothing happened in Italy as I re-organised.
For the most part decided to repeat last turn's bombing pattern – my logic at this stage of the campagin is 2-3 raids will push a sector into heavy damage, raid and then move on allows the repairs to take place.
Most did enough damage to justify the raid. If I can believe the report 15 AAF has added to the damage to German medium tank production.
On most sectors, no sign of the Luftwaffe, here and there some one-sided encounters.
Main concern from my point of view is the high pilot:plane loss rate on my side.
Nothing happened in Italy as I re-organised.
T42 - still mostly waiting
T42 – 15 April 1944
VP chart recovering from my incautious few turns. I'd like it to be higher to absorb the inevitable damage from invading France.
Air campaign shifts more to France, pulled US B-26s away from Germany to add to the port and rail attacks. Also a few experimental attacks with the tactical bombers, trying to work out plane density/hex/interdiction outcome. 15 AAF carries on over Steyr, main B-17 raid goes for Leipzig, secondary raids around Ulm and Nurnberg.
Italy is focussed on the next step of the Arno battles.
The various ground attack missions inflicted fairly heavy losses on the Germans, including almost 800 trucks.
For the Air-to-Air combat, I came out around 2-1 ahead.
In terms of bombing results, BC didn't do much damage over the Ruhr despite swapping to the Cologne sector (I'm not sure there is that much left to bomb), the day raid on Ulm was more successful.
Note that for these missions I'm opting for low intensity raids a couple of days a week.
The targetting of the German tank production continues. 8 AAF reports damage around Leipzig-Magdeburg and 15 AAF again at Steyr – where there was a lot of German fighters. But I now have so many bombers arriving as reinforcements its much easier to stand down chewed up formations and just replace them with fresh/recovered.
In France, besides the usual transport and V-weapon targets, ran some practice interdiction. This was the Mosquitos back to hitting the railways. To put that into context a #3 pushes notional rail usage up by 15,000 and a #4 by 18,000. That is quite a lot more rail capacity consumed.
Main target in Italy was hit 28 times by various 2 and 4 engined bombers.
With a lot of elements already disrupted, the usual bloody assault cleared the hex. This now gives me a few options as to the next target.
So the front line in Italy. Florence should fall in the next 2-3 turns. Apart from the lost VP for the battles, this is a bit of a no cost offensive to me. Most of 5A is not needed for the UK, but it will have to go into S France. So for the moment, this is a reasonably effective use of the resources.
The city VP is welcome, its pinning the Germans down and there is an outside chance of forcing the Appenines.
VP chart recovering from my incautious few turns. I'd like it to be higher to absorb the inevitable damage from invading France.
Air campaign shifts more to France, pulled US B-26s away from Germany to add to the port and rail attacks. Also a few experimental attacks with the tactical bombers, trying to work out plane density/hex/interdiction outcome. 15 AAF carries on over Steyr, main B-17 raid goes for Leipzig, secondary raids around Ulm and Nurnberg.
Italy is focussed on the next step of the Arno battles.
The various ground attack missions inflicted fairly heavy losses on the Germans, including almost 800 trucks.
For the Air-to-Air combat, I came out around 2-1 ahead.
In terms of bombing results, BC didn't do much damage over the Ruhr despite swapping to the Cologne sector (I'm not sure there is that much left to bomb), the day raid on Ulm was more successful.
Note that for these missions I'm opting for low intensity raids a couple of days a week.
The targetting of the German tank production continues. 8 AAF reports damage around Leipzig-Magdeburg and 15 AAF again at Steyr – where there was a lot of German fighters. But I now have so many bombers arriving as reinforcements its much easier to stand down chewed up formations and just replace them with fresh/recovered.
In France, besides the usual transport and V-weapon targets, ran some practice interdiction. This was the Mosquitos back to hitting the railways. To put that into context a #3 pushes notional rail usage up by 15,000 and a #4 by 18,000. That is quite a lot more rail capacity consumed.
Main target in Italy was hit 28 times by various 2 and 4 engined bombers.
With a lot of elements already disrupted, the usual bloody assault cleared the hex. This now gives me a few options as to the next target.
So the front line in Italy. Florence should fall in the next 2-3 turns. Apart from the lost VP for the battles, this is a bit of a no cost offensive to me. Most of 5A is not needed for the UK, but it will have to go into S France. So for the moment, this is a reasonably effective use of the resources.
The city VP is welcome, its pinning the Germans down and there is an outside chance of forcing the Appenines.
T43 - chilling out
T43 – 22 April 1944
Heavy rains over the UK so no air attacks on NW Europe. 15 AAF swapped over to Vienna, rest of the missions along the Arno.
If I can believe the reports, that has to be a successful raid, both for damage on the ground and relative losses.
Usual bomb-attack routine for 5 Army.
Which gives me 4 hexes on Florence, or possibly the scope to push deeper and unhinge the entire defensive line?
Heavy rains over the UK so no air attacks on NW Europe. 15 AAF swapped over to Vienna, rest of the missions along the Arno.
If I can believe the reports, that has to be a successful raid, both for damage on the ground and relative losses.
Usual bomb-attack routine for 5 Army.
Which gives me 4 hexes on Florence, or possibly the scope to push deeper and unhinge the entire defensive line?
T44 .. things warm up
T44 – 29 April 1944
Given the lack of effective German fighter cover, flipped BC over to day raids. The Mustangs make a difference in case of any miscalculations. 8 AAF goes for Berlin and the Baltic, not just heavily escorted but covered by an AS too.
Over the Ruhr, Bomber Command is now facing no opposition, its going to run out of targets soon.
Its deeper raid on Schweinfurt-Nuremberg (the Pzr V plants) ran into more oppostion but the Mustang escorts drove off the Luftwaffe.
8 AAF over Berlin ran into a lot of fighters, but no German air defences on the Baltic.
15 AAF hit Vienna again, no real opposition.
This is one of those hard-wired transitions in any game of WiTW. First, I no longer have any shortages of planes and the 1944 Mustangs (both US and CW) are readily available. Second, inevitably, the average experience of the Luftwaffe starts to slide. So they can't sit back into safe space and in the WiTx air model, experience trumps almost any other characteristic.
There is not much the German player can do about this. The swap to less trained pilots can be delayed but only by not using your airforce in 1943. In truth come the second half of 1944, the Allied player does strategic bombing simply as you have the assets and you might as well use them.
So near Vienna:
BC at Nuremberg, experience and the Mustangs.
P51s near Berlin. Here its not so much greater experience, its making the Luftwaffe fight well above their effective altitude.
On the ground, a shift from my usual cautious approach, tried to take Pirato. Both attacks failed, but after that and the bombing I doubt the infantry will be much use next week.
To the east, took advantage of the weakening of the German defensive line. Did a temporary motorisation for the 2 Allied divisions (have admin pts to spare) which allows you to attack even where you have no apparent threat. French mountain troops pushed into the gap.
So the Italian front, nice to see partisans so active in Genoa – historically the only Italian city to liberate itself against German forces during the war before the arrival of Allied ground units.
I am now ready to invade France, only issue remaining is timing and the weather. Have a lot of airpower arriving in the coming turns but its a case of being reasonably sure I get good weather the turn after landing now.
So here's the land OOB, there are still a few units in the Med that I want in N France, but they are very much for the breakout phase not the landing zone battles.
And the air. I tend to not use Malta air command unless I am operating in two distinct theatres – in other words once I invade S France, I'll use it to keep the allocation of the tactical air formations reasonably simple.
Ground losses so far.
Air losses.
And my bomber losses.
And what I know about the German army in France – not much but some Pzrs lurking around Paris. Still looks like a decision not to deploy onto the beaches – I'll keep an eye on this as it will influence my pre-invasion bombing plans.
Given the lack of effective German fighter cover, flipped BC over to day raids. The Mustangs make a difference in case of any miscalculations. 8 AAF goes for Berlin and the Baltic, not just heavily escorted but covered by an AS too.
Over the Ruhr, Bomber Command is now facing no opposition, its going to run out of targets soon.
Its deeper raid on Schweinfurt-Nuremberg (the Pzr V plants) ran into more oppostion but the Mustang escorts drove off the Luftwaffe.
8 AAF over Berlin ran into a lot of fighters, but no German air defences on the Baltic.
15 AAF hit Vienna again, no real opposition.
This is one of those hard-wired transitions in any game of WiTW. First, I no longer have any shortages of planes and the 1944 Mustangs (both US and CW) are readily available. Second, inevitably, the average experience of the Luftwaffe starts to slide. So they can't sit back into safe space and in the WiTx air model, experience trumps almost any other characteristic.
There is not much the German player can do about this. The swap to less trained pilots can be delayed but only by not using your airforce in 1943. In truth come the second half of 1944, the Allied player does strategic bombing simply as you have the assets and you might as well use them.
So near Vienna:
BC at Nuremberg, experience and the Mustangs.
P51s near Berlin. Here its not so much greater experience, its making the Luftwaffe fight well above their effective altitude.
On the ground, a shift from my usual cautious approach, tried to take Pirato. Both attacks failed, but after that and the bombing I doubt the infantry will be much use next week.
To the east, took advantage of the weakening of the German defensive line. Did a temporary motorisation for the 2 Allied divisions (have admin pts to spare) which allows you to attack even where you have no apparent threat. French mountain troops pushed into the gap.
So the Italian front, nice to see partisans so active in Genoa – historically the only Italian city to liberate itself against German forces during the war before the arrival of Allied ground units.
I am now ready to invade France, only issue remaining is timing and the weather. Have a lot of airpower arriving in the coming turns but its a case of being reasonably sure I get good weather the turn after landing now.
So here's the land OOB, there are still a few units in the Med that I want in N France, but they are very much for the breakout phase not the landing zone battles.
And the air. I tend to not use Malta air command unless I am operating in two distinct theatres – in other words once I invade S France, I'll use it to keep the allocation of the tactical air formations reasonably simple.
Ground losses so far.
Air losses.
And my bomber losses.
And what I know about the German army in France – not much but some Pzrs lurking around Paris. Still looks like a decision not to deploy onto the beaches – I'll keep an eye on this as it will influence my pre-invasion bombing plans.
T45 ... keeping it all simmering
T45 – 6 May 1944
Nothing really different this turn, similar bombing pattern, probing for gaps in Italy.
Anyway back to the details, VP situation:
Bombing was much as before – hit some unit targets in France, usual range of attacks over Germany. Came out around 2-1 in A2A combat.
On the ground 8 Army cleared out a small German enclave, helps move me across the Appenines. 5 Army made some more gains and another failed attack at Prato.
So no real change, but my 2 small gains all help move across the barrier – still more likely to get around by sea.
Weather next turn – clear skies and light mud in N France.
Nothing really different this turn, similar bombing pattern, probing for gaps in Italy.
Anyway back to the details, VP situation:
Bombing was much as before – hit some unit targets in France, usual range of attacks over Germany. Came out around 2-1 in A2A combat.
On the ground 8 Army cleared out a small German enclave, helps move me across the Appenines. 5 Army made some more gains and another failed attack at Prato.
So no real change, but my 2 small gains all help move across the barrier – still more likely to get around by sea.
Weather next turn – clear skies and light mud in N France.
T46 - a day trip to Picardy
T46 – 13 May 1944
So probably the most important piece of information. Its clear and dry this turn, rain next.
VP score churns along happily.
Have 121 air groups resting, 370 (excluding Transports), ready. It does seem to be a pity not to invade?
So a far more complex set of AD as a result – not helped by only limited recon on the German army.
BC, 8 AAF and 15 AAF all run one strategic bombing mission with the V-weapon factories as the prime target.
Given poor intelligence, I'm actually holding back some tactical air, or allocating it to GS.
So the bulk is direct attacks on a few hexes, and setting up interdiction over the more likely routes any German reserves might take. Heavy bombers take out most of the rail yards and ports in the immediate sector.
And lost in the new focus, decide its time to simply take Florence which gets heavily bombed as a result.
Strategic bombing missions mostly seemed to work and encountered little direct opposition.
The surprise was the commitment of the Luftwaffe into the invasion zones despite the volume of my aircover. Given I shot down almost 70 bombers, I doubt they can repeat it [1].
So to take my mind off that problem, off to Italy, where the first attempt to take Florence failed. Given that the city is largely isolated for reinforcements, decide against a new attack, my troops can recover, the German defenders can't.
So there we are, relatively little attrition, supported by 2 planned para drops (one a gamble as I know the hex is occupied but the target has lost about half its combat squads in the recent bombing).
Depending on what the response is I may have a 5 hex wide landing zone and maybe some depth, if so I can start to add HQ and armour fairly quickly. I don't have much already at sea as I wanted to avoid too many losses to the axis interdiction.
In a way its a set up that invites a counter-attack. The 2 paratroop drops will generate a lot more immediate interdiction and I have (as above) deliberately kept a lot of tactical air back (including the Hurricane IV with their tank destroying load out).
And Italy, 8 Army carries on clearing up its flank and easing contact with my advanced units.
Despite my earlier guess, looks like HG is still in Italy.
And, as we haven't had one for a while, a random image – transporting trucks to France:
[1] in this sense, read the word 'doubt' as actually being 'hope', but I guess this is a useful commitment even if it can't be sustained.
So probably the most important piece of information. Its clear and dry this turn, rain next.
VP score churns along happily.
Have 121 air groups resting, 370 (excluding Transports), ready. It does seem to be a pity not to invade?
So a far more complex set of AD as a result – not helped by only limited recon on the German army.
BC, 8 AAF and 15 AAF all run one strategic bombing mission with the V-weapon factories as the prime target.
Given poor intelligence, I'm actually holding back some tactical air, or allocating it to GS.
So the bulk is direct attacks on a few hexes, and setting up interdiction over the more likely routes any German reserves might take. Heavy bombers take out most of the rail yards and ports in the immediate sector.
And lost in the new focus, decide its time to simply take Florence which gets heavily bombed as a result.
Strategic bombing missions mostly seemed to work and encountered little direct opposition.
The surprise was the commitment of the Luftwaffe into the invasion zones despite the volume of my aircover. Given I shot down almost 70 bombers, I doubt they can repeat it [1].
So to take my mind off that problem, off to Italy, where the first attempt to take Florence failed. Given that the city is largely isolated for reinforcements, decide against a new attack, my troops can recover, the German defenders can't.
So there we are, relatively little attrition, supported by 2 planned para drops (one a gamble as I know the hex is occupied but the target has lost about half its combat squads in the recent bombing).
Depending on what the response is I may have a 5 hex wide landing zone and maybe some depth, if so I can start to add HQ and armour fairly quickly. I don't have much already at sea as I wanted to avoid too many losses to the axis interdiction.
In a way its a set up that invites a counter-attack. The 2 paratroop drops will generate a lot more immediate interdiction and I have (as above) deliberately kept a lot of tactical air back (including the Hurricane IV with their tank destroying load out).
And Italy, 8 Army carries on clearing up its flank and easing contact with my advanced units.
Despite my earlier guess, looks like HG is still in Italy.
And, as we haven't had one for a while, a random image – transporting trucks to France:
[1] in this sense, read the word 'doubt' as actually being 'hope', but I guess this is a useful commitment even if it can't be sustained.
T47 - liberating the Uffizi
T47 – 20 May 1944
Combination of the landing battles and the Florence attack has produced fairly heavy losses. In a way its a surprise to have the +1 but it helps that the v-weapons are out of action.
8 AAF and BC keep up some attention to the Reich but again the bulk is assigned to France. B-17s carry on hitting the railyards and v-weapon launch pads.
BC and Coastal Command, protected by FC and elements of 8 AAF cover the sealanes.
Ground attack missions are aimed at 4 specific hexes, this'll give me depth if I can push those units back and some protective interdiction. I'm holding about 25% of Tactical Air back till the German armour appears on the front lines.
Also keeping a lot back assigned to protective GS missons.
In Italy, spotted HG in open terrain so shift some bombing focus to hitting that specific formation.
The strategic bombing knocked out Nordhausen and some damage in the northern sectors of the Ruhr.
Luftwaffe intervened again over the sea lanes
But they were also mostly unescorted.
Quick trip to Italy. The units defending Florence had lost about 25% of their combat elements in the pre-attack bombing, even so, much closer than I'd expected.
On the east, 8 Army clears out San Marino.
In France, 2 British Army pushes off the beaches, but first attempt to make deeper gains is stalled.
Still overall have a bit of space, 2 hexes where I can land and a bit of retreat space if needed. The two advanced stacks could be beaten back but both would demand a lot of commitment to do so.
As to be expected, heavy losses, not helped by my 2 defeats.
Combination of the landing battles and the Florence attack has produced fairly heavy losses. In a way its a surprise to have the +1 but it helps that the v-weapons are out of action.
8 AAF and BC keep up some attention to the Reich but again the bulk is assigned to France. B-17s carry on hitting the railyards and v-weapon launch pads.
BC and Coastal Command, protected by FC and elements of 8 AAF cover the sealanes.
Ground attack missions are aimed at 4 specific hexes, this'll give me depth if I can push those units back and some protective interdiction. I'm holding about 25% of Tactical Air back till the German armour appears on the front lines.
Also keeping a lot back assigned to protective GS missons.
In Italy, spotted HG in open terrain so shift some bombing focus to hitting that specific formation.
The strategic bombing knocked out Nordhausen and some damage in the northern sectors of the Ruhr.
Luftwaffe intervened again over the sea lanes
But they were also mostly unescorted.
Quick trip to Italy. The units defending Florence had lost about 25% of their combat elements in the pre-attack bombing, even so, much closer than I'd expected.
On the east, 8 Army clears out San Marino.
In France, 2 British Army pushes off the beaches, but first attempt to make deeper gains is stalled.
Still overall have a bit of space, 2 hexes where I can land and a bit of retreat space if needed. The two advanced stacks could be beaten back but both would demand a lot of commitment to do so.
As to be expected, heavy losses, not helped by my 2 defeats.
T48 - moving along the Seine
T48 – 27 May 1944
Just keeping my head above water with the VP situation.
Bombing pattern remains predictable. One block of 8 AAF goes for the Hamburg region, BC (back to night operations) goes for the Baltic and 15 AAF goes for Munich sector.
Everything else is some version of tactical operations. The B-17s are moved from transport bombing to make things very uncomfortable for some ground targets. I also spotted those damn bombers last turn, if they are still there, some won't be operational next week.
Other change is I now have some Pzrs spotted, so send in the Hurricane IV with their 40mm machine guns.
Air losses, came out well ahead on A2A, and guessed right about the German bombers. Reports of around 60 blown up on their bases.
Strategic bombing mostly seems to have been effective.
Interdiction charts, 9 AAF delivered enough west of the Seine, not much over the main German foces but then that was mostly direct unit bombing.
The Hurricane IV flew into scary levels of flak, but disrupted a lot of that German Pzr division, one typical attack.
Harris is of course very annoyed that there is now clear evidence that the Lancaster has a valuable role in bombing airbases.
Quick shift to Italy. Letting 5 Army have a rest after the recent battles but both 7 and 8 Armies make some small gains on their respective flanks.
So France, first attempt to break out provoked a very serious commitment of Pzrs. Good thing is the US formations stopped early and my airpower landed some useful damage. A second attack was much the same pattern, hope is that this starts to exhaust their reserves.
To put this comment into context, on T47, 2 Pzr intervened with an effective CV of 10.2, this turn after the tender attentions of the Hurricanes its down to 5.8. Its going to have to pull back to refit soon. 12 SS Pzr is down from 12.8 to 9.5 (and 7.4 in the second battle for that hex).
As in WiTE2 you can overload even a very strong German defensive set up but the differences are obvious. The allied armies are not configured for Soviet levels of combat tempo, but the Soviets lack the airpower that can mean the German player needs to make some careful judgements about when to pull back, leave it too late and you are locked down by interdiction. Clearly we are nowhere near that point yet.
Reward for that was the British cleared out a hex with no intervention (those units had also been bombed 27 times by B-17s – which probably explains the complete collapse).
At the moment I can use the Seine to protect my flank which means I can push into smaller gaps than I might want to risk with at least 4 Pzr divisions already detected and I suspect there are more.
Brought in the British 52 Airlanding division to shore up my eastern flank, as well as more tanks and infantry.
One more hex and I avoid the beachhead penalty.
Ground losses for the turn – surprised I am ahead but they lost a lot to the bombing.
Reasonably content with France. The Pzrs can't win many more battles like that before they need to rest. My low levels of interdiction are a bit of a problem, but then I am ok to see what seems to be 2 Pzr Corps committed. If I can time this right, their retreat will be very uncomfortable.
Also, as noted above, for the moment, the Seine is a very useful flank protection.
Just keeping my head above water with the VP situation.
Bombing pattern remains predictable. One block of 8 AAF goes for the Hamburg region, BC (back to night operations) goes for the Baltic and 15 AAF goes for Munich sector.
Everything else is some version of tactical operations. The B-17s are moved from transport bombing to make things very uncomfortable for some ground targets. I also spotted those damn bombers last turn, if they are still there, some won't be operational next week.
Other change is I now have some Pzrs spotted, so send in the Hurricane IV with their 40mm machine guns.
Air losses, came out well ahead on A2A, and guessed right about the German bombers. Reports of around 60 blown up on their bases.
Strategic bombing mostly seems to have been effective.
Interdiction charts, 9 AAF delivered enough west of the Seine, not much over the main German foces but then that was mostly direct unit bombing.
The Hurricane IV flew into scary levels of flak, but disrupted a lot of that German Pzr division, one typical attack.
Harris is of course very annoyed that there is now clear evidence that the Lancaster has a valuable role in bombing airbases.
Quick shift to Italy. Letting 5 Army have a rest after the recent battles but both 7 and 8 Armies make some small gains on their respective flanks.
So France, first attempt to break out provoked a very serious commitment of Pzrs. Good thing is the US formations stopped early and my airpower landed some useful damage. A second attack was much the same pattern, hope is that this starts to exhaust their reserves.
To put this comment into context, on T47, 2 Pzr intervened with an effective CV of 10.2, this turn after the tender attentions of the Hurricanes its down to 5.8. Its going to have to pull back to refit soon. 12 SS Pzr is down from 12.8 to 9.5 (and 7.4 in the second battle for that hex).
As in WiTE2 you can overload even a very strong German defensive set up but the differences are obvious. The allied armies are not configured for Soviet levels of combat tempo, but the Soviets lack the airpower that can mean the German player needs to make some careful judgements about when to pull back, leave it too late and you are locked down by interdiction. Clearly we are nowhere near that point yet.
Reward for that was the British cleared out a hex with no intervention (those units had also been bombed 27 times by B-17s – which probably explains the complete collapse).
At the moment I can use the Seine to protect my flank which means I can push into smaller gaps than I might want to risk with at least 4 Pzr divisions already detected and I suspect there are more.
Brought in the British 52 Airlanding division to shore up my eastern flank, as well as more tanks and infantry.
One more hex and I avoid the beachhead penalty.
Ground losses for the turn – surprised I am ahead but they lost a lot to the bombing.
Reasonably content with France. The Pzrs can't win many more battles like that before they need to rest. My low levels of interdiction are a bit of a problem, but then I am ok to see what seems to be 2 Pzr Corps committed. If I can time this right, their retreat will be very uncomfortable.
Also, as noted above, for the moment, the Seine is a very useful flank protection.
T49 - embracing Dr. Pangloss
T49 – 3 June 1944
Clear ground, clear skies – could have been a good turn to invade? Upgrade 2 of the landing beaches to Mulberries (level 4 ports, so much more supply can now be landed).
VP holding up (+6) despite some V-weapon pts lost (remember they double now I've invaded).
Air war, some attacks in Germany, shift the focus of the tactical air back to mostly interdiction, heavier bombers strike specific targets. Some isolated raids on possible v-weapon sites that might have repaired. Tactical missions focussed on the transport links between the Seine and the Somme.
The limited strategic bombing (Cologne, Bremen-Hamburg and Munich-Ulm) all reported good results and no real fighter opposition
In France, the heavier bombers hit at least 2 Panzer divisions heavily (something like 15 destroyed tanks and 60 or more disrupted/damaged). Careful study of the results suggests that this disrupted the 20+ Tigers that 12SS Pzr possessed, a useful gap in their in-turn combat power.
At least one other stack under #9 interdiction, so want to see if I can make that intervene (=movement).
In Italy, the Germans have a new tactic. Clearly they are telling their Italian allies to stand outside and wave at the American bombers while the Germans hide in their bunkers?
Italy, 8 Army regained the ground lost in a counter-attack and cleared the supply lines to its spearhead, 5 and 7 managed a small breakthrough.
Opening attempt to clear Le Havre fails in heavy fighting.
Equally heavy fighting during the second attack, but this time the German fortifications are badly damaged.
US 1 Army attacks. Oddly this couldn't have gone better if I had chosen the German reaction. 11 Pzr was the unit sat under the #9 interdiction, so around 50% of its armour disrupted.
Second attack lures 12 SS into playing in the open. Thats a decent cull of its tanks [1]
XXX Corps has a go, and again its 12 SS that intervenes (along with a Pzr Gr division)
So no gains in France, but some damage to the Germans (and to me), now its a case of hoping that the interdiction levels start to bite as they try to reinforce.
I somehow suspect those losses will put my VP score into the negative.
Anyway time for another random image. Part of one of the Mulberry harbours being tested in the Solway Firth:
[1] I am taking a rather panglossian view of these results.
Clear ground, clear skies – could have been a good turn to invade? Upgrade 2 of the landing beaches to Mulberries (level 4 ports, so much more supply can now be landed).
VP holding up (+6) despite some V-weapon pts lost (remember they double now I've invaded).
Air war, some attacks in Germany, shift the focus of the tactical air back to mostly interdiction, heavier bombers strike specific targets. Some isolated raids on possible v-weapon sites that might have repaired. Tactical missions focussed on the transport links between the Seine and the Somme.
The limited strategic bombing (Cologne, Bremen-Hamburg and Munich-Ulm) all reported good results and no real fighter opposition
In France, the heavier bombers hit at least 2 Panzer divisions heavily (something like 15 destroyed tanks and 60 or more disrupted/damaged). Careful study of the results suggests that this disrupted the 20+ Tigers that 12SS Pzr possessed, a useful gap in their in-turn combat power.
At least one other stack under #9 interdiction, so want to see if I can make that intervene (=movement).
In Italy, the Germans have a new tactic. Clearly they are telling their Italian allies to stand outside and wave at the American bombers while the Germans hide in their bunkers?
Italy, 8 Army regained the ground lost in a counter-attack and cleared the supply lines to its spearhead, 5 and 7 managed a small breakthrough.
Opening attempt to clear Le Havre fails in heavy fighting.
Equally heavy fighting during the second attack, but this time the German fortifications are badly damaged.
US 1 Army attacks. Oddly this couldn't have gone better if I had chosen the German reaction. 11 Pzr was the unit sat under the #9 interdiction, so around 50% of its armour disrupted.
Second attack lures 12 SS into playing in the open. Thats a decent cull of its tanks [1]
XXX Corps has a go, and again its 12 SS that intervenes (along with a Pzr Gr division)
So no gains in France, but some damage to the Germans (and to me), now its a case of hoping that the interdiction levels start to bite as they try to reinforce.
I somehow suspect those losses will put my VP score into the negative.
Anyway time for another random image. Part of one of the Mulberry harbours being tested in the Solway Firth:
[1] I am taking a rather panglossian view of these results.
T50 - Dr Pangloss was clearly a pessimist
T50 – 10 June 1944
Ok, this was a surprise, even worse my tactic of massive pre-attack bombing was turned on me. Annoyingly the Spitfires I had deployed in France and left on auto-intercept only intervened a couple of times.
and this worse – the division was on ships, so displaced [1]
VP situation fairly predictable
After a bit of thinking cancelled all bombing over the Reich, both France and Italy offer more immediate targets. Basically all the level bombers are doing unit attack missions on fully detected targets, the tactical bombers are either on GS or interdiction missions.
So lets deal with the simple stuff. Italy. The Germans shifted their reserves to contain the offensive on the west, so 8 Army, preceeded by every bomber I have, crossed the Marechhia and reached the outskirts of Forli. 7 Army makes more gains as the Germans try to cover the line.
5 Army attacked at Pistoia with the expectation of failing. The attack triggered HG into a reserve reaction, so less MP if it is now going east to deal with the 8 Army breakout.
Took 3 attacks but Le Havre fell. An attempt to make gains on the east edge failed but XXX Corps sealed the breach.
It was tempting to leave the FJ regiment at Fecamp for next turn, but decided I wanted as much freedom of movement as I can manage so routed it out.
Very heavy losses, some optimism to both see so many German tanks and that they are digging deep into their stocks of captured French tanks from 1940. I presume that was mostly the reserve Pzr division.
Again, while not many Tiger's actually destroyed, none actually got into action as they all seemed to have been disrupted in the bombing raids.
Nex turn's weather, clear in France, light rain in Italy.
[1] So lets enumerate the mistakes. The basic one was to land a US armoured division with no capacity to unload (it would have been perfectly safe at sea given my naval control). That reduced my spare slots from 3 across the bridgehead to 2.
The German attack on the US infantry is typical of the risks of not using Normandy – there hexes are harder to take but secure once you do.
2 of the retreating divisions fell back onto vacant slots, the last routed to the UK as (ahem) no vacant slot.
To make this worse, that beach hex was the US armour (still playing on their ships) and 2 HQ, So when the FJ did a hasty attack the armour displaced and the now unprotected HQs also went to the UK.
If I'd done as I should (ie left the 3 vacant slots), I'd have lost a single hex -even a battered US Inf division would have held the beachhead, esp with all the TF naval support.
Very useful reminder that small details matter in this game.
Ok, this was a surprise, even worse my tactic of massive pre-attack bombing was turned on me. Annoyingly the Spitfires I had deployed in France and left on auto-intercept only intervened a couple of times.
and this worse – the division was on ships, so displaced [1]
VP situation fairly predictable
After a bit of thinking cancelled all bombing over the Reich, both France and Italy offer more immediate targets. Basically all the level bombers are doing unit attack missions on fully detected targets, the tactical bombers are either on GS or interdiction missions.
So lets deal with the simple stuff. Italy. The Germans shifted their reserves to contain the offensive on the west, so 8 Army, preceeded by every bomber I have, crossed the Marechhia and reached the outskirts of Forli. 7 Army makes more gains as the Germans try to cover the line.
5 Army attacked at Pistoia with the expectation of failing. The attack triggered HG into a reserve reaction, so less MP if it is now going east to deal with the 8 Army breakout.
Took 3 attacks but Le Havre fell. An attempt to make gains on the east edge failed but XXX Corps sealed the breach.
It was tempting to leave the FJ regiment at Fecamp for next turn, but decided I wanted as much freedom of movement as I can manage so routed it out.
Very heavy losses, some optimism to both see so many German tanks and that they are digging deep into their stocks of captured French tanks from 1940. I presume that was mostly the reserve Pzr division.
Again, while not many Tiger's actually destroyed, none actually got into action as they all seemed to have been disrupted in the bombing raids.
Nex turn's weather, clear in France, light rain in Italy.
[1] So lets enumerate the mistakes. The basic one was to land a US armoured division with no capacity to unload (it would have been perfectly safe at sea given my naval control). That reduced my spare slots from 3 across the bridgehead to 2.
The German attack on the US infantry is typical of the risks of not using Normandy – there hexes are harder to take but secure once you do.
2 of the retreating divisions fell back onto vacant slots, the last routed to the UK as (ahem) no vacant slot.
To make this worse, that beach hex was the US armour (still playing on their ships) and 2 HQ, So when the FJ did a hasty attack the armour displaced and the now unprotected HQs also went to the UK.
If I'd done as I should (ie left the 3 vacant slots), I'd have lost a single hex -even a battered US Inf division would have held the beachhead, esp with all the TF naval support.
Very useful reminder that small details matter in this game.
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HermanGraf
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:49 am
RE: T50 - Dr Pangloss was clearly a pessimist
Fun side note: Americans often mistakenly identified P4s as Tiger tanks. The American fear of Tiger tanks was almost as fake as the boogie man! In fact, Americans NEVER faced the Tiger tank on the Western front. Tiger tanks were deployed only to combat the British and Canadians near Caen. The only time an American force encountered a tiger tank, was when an advanced recon detachment ran into a train carrying tiger tanks to another front. The Americans quickly killed the crews trying to scramble to the tanks and the rest retreated.
Please, fact check me
Please, fact check me
RE: T50 - Dr Pangloss was clearly a pessimist
Just like every British fighter was claimed to be a Spitfire and every Japanese fighter a "Zeke".ORIGINAL: HermanGraf
Fun side note: Americans often mistakenly identified P4s as Tiger tanks. The American fear of Tiger tanks was almost as fake as the boogie man! In fact, Americans NEVER faced the Tiger tank on the Western front. Tiger tanks were deployed only to combat the British and Canadians near Caen. The only time an American force encountered a tiger tank, was when an advanced recon detachment ran into a train carrying tiger tanks to another front. The Americans quickly killed the crews trying to scramble to the tanks and the rest retreated.
Please, fact check me
You might want to check your claim about the US Army v Tiger, I'll check some info about North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Ardennes etc
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
RE: T50 - Dr Pangloss was clearly a pessimist
It says here that Tigers fought American tanks in Tunisia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501st_Hea ... _BattalionORIGINAL: JeffroK
Just like every British fighter was claimed to be a Spitfire and every Japanese fighter a "Zeke".ORIGINAL: HermanGraf
Fun side note: Americans often mistakenly identified P4s as Tiger tanks. The American fear of Tiger tanks was almost as fake as the boogie man! In fact, Americans NEVER faced the Tiger tank on the Western front. Tiger tanks were deployed only to combat the British and Canadians near Caen. The only time an American force encountered a tiger tank, was when an advanced recon detachment ran into a train carrying tiger tanks to another front. The Americans quickly killed the crews trying to scramble to the tanks and the rest retreated.
Please, fact check me
You might want to check your claim about the US Army v Tiger, I'll check some info about North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Ardennes etc
John Barr
RE: T50 - Dr Pangloss was clearly a pessimist
Plus at Anzio, Northern Italy, Ardennes and I'm sure the German plains.
Maybe, the OP means in Normandy, where the vast bulk of German armour faced the British/Canadian front ( but some Tigers were in the Falaise Gap where they may have face US Troops.
Maybe, the OP means in Normandy, where the vast bulk of German armour faced the British/Canadian front ( but some Tigers were in the Falaise Gap where they may have face US Troops.
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
RE: T50 - Dr Pangloss was clearly a pessimist
Plus don't forget Oddball at the battle of Clermont.ORIGINAL: JeffroK
Plus at Anzio, Northern Italy, Ardennes and I'm sure the German plains.
Maybe, the OP means in Normandy, where the vast bulk of German armour faced the British/Canadian front ( but some Tigers were in the Falaise Gap where they may have face US Troops.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly%27s_Heroes John Barr
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bomccarthy
- Posts: 414
- Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:32 pm
- Location: L.A.
RE: T50 - Dr Pangloss was clearly a pessimist
ORIGINAL: loki100
Ok, this was a surprise, even worse my tactic of massive pre-attack bombing was turned on me. Annoyingly the Spitfires I had deployed in France and left on auto-intercept only intervened a couple of times.
I guess because I have been playing WITP:AE for so long, I always fly "heavily stocked" AS directives over invasion sites for as long as my forces are attempting to breakout. This includes multiple directives that cover the beaches and the perimeter, as well as the Channel vicinity (when dealing with northern France). I use the fighters from 8th and 9th AF, as well as Fighter Command and 2d TAF
I actually borrowed this tactic from the real-life Allies - 8th AF fighters "CAP'd" the beaches for the entire week after the invasion, while 9th AF fighters flew CAP for more than a month; this was in addition to Fighter Command and 2d TAF CAP over the beach and the Channel approaches; IIRC, FAA Hellcats "CAP'd" the northern part of the Channel, near Dover and Calais. The result was enormous Luftwaffe losses in fighters and bombers over Normandy throughout the months of June and July (yes, the Luftwaffe did attempt numerous strike missions against the Allied ground forces during those months - they just couldn't get past the mass of Allied fighters).
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bomccarthy
- Posts: 414
- Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:32 pm
- Location: L.A.
RE: T50 - Dr Pangloss was clearly a pessimist
ORIGINAL: JeffroK
Just like every British fighter was claimed to be a Spitfire and every Japanese fighter a "Zeke".ORIGINAL: HermanGraf
Fun side note: Americans often mistakenly identified P4s as Tiger tanks. The American fear of Tiger tanks was almost as fake as the boogie man! In fact, Americans NEVER faced the Tiger tank on the Western front. Tiger tanks were deployed only to combat the British and Canadians near Caen. The only time an American force encountered a tiger tank, was when an advanced recon detachment ran into a train carrying tiger tanks to another front. The Americans quickly killed the crews trying to scramble to the tanks and the rest retreated.
Please, fact check me
You might want to check your claim about the US Army v Tiger, I'll check some info about North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Ardennes etc
Search the Chieftain's Hatch on Youtube and World of Tanks website - Nicholas Moran has produced a treasure trove of research, "papers", and "lectures" on the Sherman and the Tiger (plus, he is one of the best non-actor presenters on Youtube). I seem to recall from one of his videos that the Western Allied Shermans fought Tigers in less than 10 battles in northwest Europe. Interestingly, his research of US Army archived documents showed that US Sherman tank crews suffered the lowest combat fatality rate of any country in the war.