I know there are lots of threads on Allied CV groups but I was just wondering about the mixing Heavy Cruisers with Light Cruisers. I thought I read that was a bad composition for your CV TF, is there a penalty for mixing CA and CL? Most of the time I let the computer pick the ships and then try to clean it up. But sometimes the computer just makes weird choices like CV CV CL DD DD... What?
Early game I have almost always run 1 CV per TF but I always thought it was good to throw in a heavy cruiser (Pensacola Class)with the heavy AA guns. So would be something like CV CA CL CL DD DD DD DD DD sometimes two heavies if I have enough in port.
With my 1 CV task force I will make 2 at least sometimes 3 TF's and run them close to each other. But still just for minor action in the south I never take on the whirlwind.
Also does anyone ever find a purpose for the British CVs early game? They seem next to useless and by the time I could move them to the South Pacific they would be ready to leave sometimes. Don't get them long enough to do much.
CV Groups
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: CV Groups
Lots of threads [8D]
CV TF
I am not aware of any penalties applied to specific ship mixture. CA CL
I would suggest you can be guided by real life - looking at the composition of USN Forces at Midway (early war when ships were scarce) and late war such as TF58 and its various components i.e. TF 58.1 TF 58.2 etc (when USN ships are more plentiful)
British Navy early war.
Yes the Royal Navy is a little brittle in the early war (opinion only) as modeled in the game.
Its hard to say whether the long lance / night tactics superiority the IJN enjoyed verses the Americans up till about Guadalcanal - also applied to the British ? The Royal Navy was good and trained. Did the British also have to wait for radar upgrades to offset any IJN advantage ?
I am no expert and it may be conjecture.
When playing against the AI or a good opponent you likely face IJN Naval Superiority. Use the Royal Navy and her various Cruisers as a threat in force.
1) Hit and run. Look to speed in and disrupt any amphibious operation (i.e. Chittatong ? Rangoon ? Depends on your game)
2) Bombard unprotected back bases. Damage Airbases, planes, port facilities, cause troop disruption. Hit and Run.
The Caveat to all this is Naval Search / Naval Search / Naval Search / Recon / Recon / Recon. When you are sure it is safe Search and Recon 3 more times.
CV TF
I am not aware of any penalties applied to specific ship mixture. CA CL
I would suggest you can be guided by real life - looking at the composition of USN Forces at Midway (early war when ships were scarce) and late war such as TF58 and its various components i.e. TF 58.1 TF 58.2 etc (when USN ships are more plentiful)
British Navy early war.
Yes the Royal Navy is a little brittle in the early war (opinion only) as modeled in the game.
Its hard to say whether the long lance / night tactics superiority the IJN enjoyed verses the Americans up till about Guadalcanal - also applied to the British ? The Royal Navy was good and trained. Did the British also have to wait for radar upgrades to offset any IJN advantage ?
I am no expert and it may be conjecture.
When playing against the AI or a good opponent you likely face IJN Naval Superiority. Use the Royal Navy and her various Cruisers as a threat in force.
1) Hit and run. Look to speed in and disrupt any amphibious operation (i.e. Chittatong ? Rangoon ? Depends on your game)
2) Bombard unprotected back bases. Damage Airbases, planes, port facilities, cause troop disruption. Hit and Run.
The Caveat to all this is Naval Search / Naval Search / Naval Search / Recon / Recon / Recon. When you are sure it is safe Search and Recon 3 more times.
A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.
RE: CV Groups
Oh ok that is the reason I was asking about the cruisers I could have sworn I seen it here but maybe my imagination.
Yeah I also from my knowledge of history think the British were more capable at surface combat than the Americans. Plus they had been on a war footing for 2 years already and seen some action. Just their carriers are difficult to put into play with the weird aircraft unit components. Fulmer is a strange bird in deed lots of roles but good at any of them?
Yeah I also from my knowledge of history think the British were more capable at surface combat than the Americans. Plus they had been on a war footing for 2 years already and seen some action. Just their carriers are difficult to put into play with the weird aircraft unit components. Fulmer is a strange bird in deed lots of roles but good at any of them?
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GetAssista
- Posts: 2836
- Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:13 am
RE: CV Groups
You should not care much about CA-CL coexistence when picking a CV group. You care mostly about speed, AA package and bomb/torp magnet ability. Everything else is secondary
Having air search radars is important wen very early in the game too
Having air search radars is important wen very early in the game too
RE: CV Groups
ORIGINAL: Scott_USN
Oh ok that is the reason I was asking about the cruisers I could have sworn I seen it here but maybe my imagination.
Yeah I also from my knowledge of history think the British were more capable at surface combat than the Americans. Plus they had been on a war footing for 2 years already and seen some action. Just their carriers are difficult to put into play with the weird aircraft unit components. Fulmer is a strange bird in deed lots of roles but good at any of them?
Fulmar's have cameras. Not many airframes with those in the early war, and I LOVE planes with cameras!
RE: CV Groups
ORIGINAL: Kull
Fulmar's have cameras. Not many airframes with those in the early war, and I LOVE planes with cameras!
I see in the manual that "The present of a camera device on a fight will identify these units. Their missions can add to the detection level of their targets."
I have some Fulmars I'm legit using as Recon so I expect those to increase DL, but if I understand this right if they did an escort over a base they'd help add to the DL of units within?
RE: CV Groups
15 ships max if you are worried about ship collisions. I am not, I use 25 ships which is maximum allowed.
16-25 of those ships contribute less and less to AA, but all still contribute. 25 ship CV TF usually has lot more AA factor than 15 ship one, of course depending on composition.
Fast BBs are your friend. Not only they have lots of AA, but being capital ships, they also soak up air attacks as targets. If you can save Prince of Wales, do it, it is great "flak ship" for US CV TF before No/SoDaks arrive, since it's 28 knot ship like those plus has lot of AAA even before upgrades. Never ever put slow 21 knot BBs with CVs, it can easily bite your a$$ if you cannot extricate yourself from situation because of them.
16-25 of those ships contribute less and less to AA, but all still contribute. 25 ship CV TF usually has lot more AA factor than 15 ship one, of course depending on composition.
Fast BBs are your friend. Not only they have lots of AA, but being capital ships, they also soak up air attacks as targets. If you can save Prince of Wales, do it, it is great "flak ship" for US CV TF before No/SoDaks arrive, since it's 28 knot ship like those plus has lot of AAA even before upgrades. Never ever put slow 21 knot BBs with CVs, it can easily bite your a$$ if you cannot extricate yourself from situation because of them.
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-
RE: CV Groups
ORIGINAL: alanschu
I see in the manual that "The present of a camera device on a fight will identify these units. Their missions can add to the detection level of their targets."
I have some Fulmars I'm legit using as Recon so I expect those to increase DL, but if I understand this right if they did an escort over a base they'd help add to the DL of units within?
No, apparently that is a unique feature of the "Tac Recon" mission (from Manual Pg 141):
Though Recon aircraft are your primary assets and are typically unarmed, it is possible to order specialized Allied Fighter units to perform “Tac Recon”. These Aircraft were armed and regularly fought their way into targets, some pilots even scored as aces. The presence of a camera device on a fighter will identify these units. Their missions can add to the Detection level of their targets. A similar role is performed by certain Japanese Army Air Force Light Bombers.
RE: CV Groups
Yeah I never paid attention to the Camera installed on the Fulmers.
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Voltreffer
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:25 pm
- Location: Los Angeles
RE: CV Groups
How did I miss the cameras on the Fulmers? That certainly adds to their usefulness!
It's always interesting to think about how relative scarcity or plentitude changes the calculus for force composition. Each front/theater has its own operational realities, so scarcity can coexit with plentitude in different areas of the map... and for different things, based upon availability and priorities. As the scale leans towards plenty, I've found myself sometimes falling into a perfection trap; that is, insisting that I only use "ideal" units/compositions to accomplish tasks. Yet, the early Allied game in particular should teach us that much can be accomplished with less than ideal assets.
For carrier groups, I consider the time in the war, the assets available, and my strategic priorities to determine task force composition. Any applicable carrier coordination penalties will usually determine the number of decks per TF. Then it's a matter of ensuring a good balance of ASW and AA abilities while maintaining the speed of the TF. Relative scarcity is more common than abundance, so scarcity usually makes the decisions easier.
It's always interesting to think about how relative scarcity or plentitude changes the calculus for force composition. Each front/theater has its own operational realities, so scarcity can coexit with plentitude in different areas of the map... and for different things, based upon availability and priorities. As the scale leans towards plenty, I've found myself sometimes falling into a perfection trap; that is, insisting that I only use "ideal" units/compositions to accomplish tasks. Yet, the early Allied game in particular should teach us that much can be accomplished with less than ideal assets.
For carrier groups, I consider the time in the war, the assets available, and my strategic priorities to determine task force composition. Any applicable carrier coordination penalties will usually determine the number of decks per TF. Then it's a matter of ensuring a good balance of ASW and AA abilities while maintaining the speed of the TF. Relative scarcity is more common than abundance, so scarcity usually makes the decisions easier.
RE: CV Groups
Yeah in 42 my Carriers are more support and raiders than offensive weapons.
RE: CV Groups
I always have a internal war going on between keeping my BBs in the CTF for their soak value vs. the sacrifice in speed as they are 28 knots versus the typical 32 knots for the carriers. Nice thing in the BTS/RA mods is that the French/American BCs are 30 knots.
"Now excuse me while I go polish my balls ...
" - BBfanboy
" - BBfanboyRE: CV Groups
Love RA but AI chokes 
RE: CV Groups
ORIGINAL: Kull
ORIGINAL: alanschu
I see in the manual that "The present of a camera device on a fight will identify these units. Their missions can add to the detection level of their targets."
I have some Fulmars I'm legit using as Recon so I expect those to increase DL, but if I understand this right if they did an escort over a base they'd help add to the DL of units within?
No, apparently that is a unique feature of the "Tac Recon" mission (from Manual Pg 141):
Though Recon aircraft are your primary assets and are typically unarmed, it is possible to order specialized Allied Fighter units to perform “Tac Recon”. These Aircraft were armed and regularly fought their way into targets, some pilots even scored as aces. The presence of a camera device on a fighter will identify these units. Their missions can add to the Detection level of their targets. A similar role is performed by certain Japanese Army Air Force Light Bombers.
Apologies for continuing to diverge from the original topic, but it's worth noting that "Tac Recon" is not a specifically selectable mission. I loaded up the Downfall scenario, and several of the late-war US fighters have cameras, but the selectable mission is "Recon" (same as the Fulmars). So it's not really clear what separates "Tac Recon" from "Recon" (perhaps it's just semantics?), or even if non-Recon-type planes can use their cameras over the target hex when conducting other mission types. Same would presumably apply to Sonia, Ida & Patsy for the Japanese.
Having used them extensively, I can say that Fulmars on Recon missions do a really good job of raising DL (and maintaining it), far more so than, say, floatplanes (which are not "recon-types" and don't have cameras, but can perform recon missions)
RE: CV Groups
As someone once said, you go to war with what you have.
If I remember correctly, the built in camera adds +2 levels to the Recon report. The Lysander also has a camera. Even on the attack, there will also be recon done, if I remember correctly. You can also Recon at night to keep the levels up.
If I remember correctly, the built in camera adds +2 levels to the Recon report. The Lysander also has a camera. Even on the attack, there will also be recon done, if I remember correctly. You can also Recon at night to keep the levels up.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child-
HansBolter
- Posts: 7457
- Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:30 pm
- Location: United States
RE: CV Groups
Dedicated Recon type aircraft on a recon mission raise DL by 4 points.
Non-Recon type aircraft on a recon mission raise DL by 2 points.
Bombers on a bombing mission raise DL by 2 points (performing a recon as a part of the bombing mission).
All of this is clearly stated in the manual.
What is not clearly stated is what impact non-recon type aircraft with cameras have.
Anecdotally, many players, myself included, have seen what appears to be more detailed and presumably more reliable information when using a camera equipped non-recon type air craft compared to using a non-camera equipped non-recon type aircraft.
I don't have any confidence that a camera-equipped non-recon type aircraft will raise the DL more than 2 points.
Non-Recon type aircraft on a recon mission raise DL by 2 points.
Bombers on a bombing mission raise DL by 2 points (performing a recon as a part of the bombing mission).
All of this is clearly stated in the manual.
What is not clearly stated is what impact non-recon type aircraft with cameras have.
Anecdotally, many players, myself included, have seen what appears to be more detailed and presumably more reliable information when using a camera equipped non-recon type air craft compared to using a non-camera equipped non-recon type aircraft.
I don't have any confidence that a camera-equipped non-recon type aircraft will raise the DL more than 2 points.
Hans
RE: CV Groups
Oh my god![X(]
Up today I never ever cared about such nitty gritty details.
Didn't know how much I missed.[:D]
Still have a long way to go to become a true member of th WitP AE community.[;)]
Up today I never ever cared about such nitty gritty details.
Didn't know how much I missed.[:D]
Still have a long way to go to become a true member of th WitP AE community.[;)]
RE: CV Groups
ORIGINAL: Kursk1943
Oh my god![X(]
Up today I never ever cared about such nitty gritty details.
Didn't know how much I missed.[:D]
Still have a long way to go to become a true member of th WitP AE community.[;)]
Are you really German? [:D]
RE: CV Groups
Why? Are we Germans infamous for loving nitty gritty details?[:D]
RE: CV Groups
ORIGINAL: Kursk1943
Why? Are we Germans infamous for loving nitty gritty details?[:D]
Yes! But in all fairness Finns are like pupils on the front bench taking notes from you.