Invisible convoy hexes near Istanbul?

[PanzerMike]

What is the purpose of these:

[AlvaroSousa]

To allow trade from Turkey to Germany and a transport of resources. There was no rail in the area.

[Michael T]

The Turkish strategic option for the Axis has been overly nerfed Alvaro. It went from being a viable alternative to the Spanish option to a no go area. Please fix up the supply net so that the Axis has some strategic alternatives other than Spain.

[PanzerMike]

I have been doing some research on Turkey. Found this:

http://www.trainsofturkey.com/index.php/Maps/Maps

I am redoing the infrastructure for my mod and using this source. When I compare with the stock scenario, the main difference is that in the east of Turkey, everything is just roads. The border with Syria and USSR only have roads going to them. My source suggests they were rail lines. Are they roads in vanilla because the capacity of these rail lines was very low? Or for gameplay reasons?

Also found this on the Bosporus (Istanbul crossing):
The Bosphorus is considered to be the dividing line between Europe and Asia. Its width between Sirkeci and Haydarpaşa is only 2,2 nautical miles (4 km). But the rail connection between the two sides has always been weak.
No direct passenger car between the two stations has ever been done. Loaded goods wagon as well as occasional rolling stock transfer, including locomotives, use to be transferred on barge pushed by tugs. TCDD started a proper train ferry ship with link spans on both sides only in 1958. This new installation greatly eased the transfer of loaded wagons.

[AlvaroSousa]

Rail lines were too shitty to support units east and also for game balance. As a previous player pointed out there was no rail at Istanbul till the 1970s. Thus it was removed.

[PanzerMike]

A direct rail connection at Istanbul did not exist in WW2, sure enough.

There was however the Istanbul - Baghdad rail line, finished in 1940. I do not know the capacity. If you have a source, please share!

What would be the consequences of having a rail line between Istanbul and Baghdad, playbalance wise?

And found this (small piece, rest behind a paywal) of an English newspaper in 1940:
on the night of July 17, 1940, the first through passenger train for Istanbul steamed out of Baghdad, the conclusion was at last written to one of the most dramatic of the stories of diplomatic and financial rivalry that have marked the last half century of European power politics. The Berlin-to-Baghdad Railway had now become a reality -- though not, as originally intended, under the aegis of Germany. Constructed primarily for peaceful commerce, the line nevertheless is of high military importance, and its completion at this moment is significant.

Through passengers from Europe to points on the Baghdad Railway must transfer at Istanbul by ferry across the Bosphorus to Haydar Pasha, while at Baghdad they must change again -- from the standard-gauge (4′ 8½″) line to the Baghdad-Basra metre-gauge (3′ 3&

[Michael T]

Certainly the rail net would have been no worse than that of the Caucasus.

I can't think of a similar scale game that makes the Turkish option so poor as WarPlan. Frankly the lack of a supply net in Turkey makes the game less interesting IMO.

[AlvaroSousa]

I see the rail line you mentioned from Baghdad to Berlin. I'll put it in the scenarios. It doesn't seem to affect things.

[PanzerMike]

There is also a case to be made for a rail line from the Caucasus to the city of Kars:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kars%E2 ... si_railway

This railway was actually used in WW1 to supply the Russian troops, so that has to count for something.

It went West as far as Erzurum. Built by the Russians and using their gauge. The railway was built in the 1,520 mm (4 ft 11 27⁄32 in) "Russian Gauge", from Tbilisi to Kars, which the Ottomans lost in 1878 to the Russian Empire.[2] The Trancaucasus Railway extended the line to Sarıkamış in 1913 and during World War I built a 750 mm (2 ft 5 1⁄2 in) narrow gauge line from Sarıkamış to Erzurum. After the war, the newly formed Republic of Turkey took back Kars and took over the two rail lines. The Turkish State Railways continued the former CFOA's work and built a railway from Ankara to Kayseri in 1927. The railway was completed to Sivas in 1930, Çetinkaya in 1936, Erzincan in 1938 and Erzurum in 1939. However the line from Erzurum to Kars was broad gauge until the State Railways converted into standard gauge in 1962.

Also found this regarding the track from Ankara to Erzurum:
Ever since the Turkish State Railways were formed in 1927, railways extended to eastern Turkey. A main line was to be constructed from Ankara to Erzurum, where it would connect with the broad gauge line to the Turkey/Soviet Union border built by the Russian Empire in 1916.[4] Construction of the line started in 1924 (by the CFAB, TCDD took over in 1927) and reached Kayseri in 1927, Sivas in 1930 and Çetinkaya in 1936. The Eastern Express made its first run with the opening of the line to Çetinkaya. The railway finally reached Erzurum in 1939. In the same year the Eastern Express started operating from Haydarpaşa to Erzurum. By transferring to a broad gauge train in Erzurum, passengers could travel to Kars, the last Turkish city before the Soviet Union.

So, it seems that in 1939 it was possible to travel between Ankara (Turkey) and Tblisi (USSR) by rail. There were still different gauges on the route, but the railway was there.

[PanzerMike]

This is my educated guess on what the infrastructure of Turkey should look like:

The main things are:
1) The Berlin - Baghdad line (or perhaps better said Istanbul - Baghdad line in this case)
2) The Ankara - Tblisi line

According to the sources I found, the BB line came online in 1940 and the AT line in 1939.
I have no hard data on capacity. I know for a fact that the AT line had different gauges (see previous post) and you had to transfer between trains along the way.

Obviously this is a hit on capacity. But whether a gauge difference warrants a rail line to represented by a road in Warplan (or interrupt a rail line with 1 road hex to represent the need to transfer to different rolling stock) is hard for me to say. Also given that a Warplan turn is 2 weeks.

In my mod I am going for the above picture, so with a connection from Turkey to Iraq and the USSR.

[AlvaroSousa]

Looks fine there but if you put that connection from Turkey to Russia it will create game balance problems. What I found that there wasn't enough of good rail in East Turkey to allow a massive build up of troops.

[PanzerMike]

What if a road hex is introduced at Erzurum? To represent the gauge difference and limited capacity. So no direct connection with the USSR? Would that still upset game balance?

Like so:

[AlvaroSousa]

That should be fine. The capacity there was less from what I read.

[PanzerMike]

Ok, thanks.

And while I have your attention, could you answer this question:
fb.asp?m=4769314

[Michael T]

Why make historical supply restraints yet ignore technical impossibilities? Like German Panzer Corp Amphibious landings?

[AlvaroSousa]

Armor - time scale, unit composition, risk involved, easy to defend against. Sealion can be defended and planned for. Just as the Axis need to plan for Sealion. It is a game of chess. As the UK you should always have an armor in the UK to force Axis units off of your country or to redeploy. It is always the 1st thing I build as the UK. You can send patrol fleets at night to cover invasion zones, put AA in hexes that are key. And let's say the Germans plan well and get on England. It will cost them heavily, perhaps the game. Invasion craft, air craft, naval units, no sub war. I did bring your concerns to the hard core beta testers in my group and they believe defending the UK is pretty fair and balanced. While history says it was impossible for Germany to invade this isn't a historical simulation, it is a fun wargame based on history that plays more like poker. I have played many games testing and I am not playing 4 live games to make sure balance is in effect. In each game I purposely did a different strategy, even if it wasn't optimal, to test the systems. I am still learning strategies in my own game. I figured I'd be bored out of my mind after 5 years. I read you are done with WarPlan. But come back maybe a year from now and try it again. As time passes the game gets better.

Turkey - #1 The rail capacity is not what you think it is for that region in the East of Turkey. #2 I took the experience and wisdom of SC3 which has been around for more than one decade and applied their reasoning for the current rail system. Bill did a meticulous job in researching his map. So I will go by what he has used. #3 game balance.