Turkey, viable option for the Axis?

[aspqrz02]

The link to the first map is behind a security wall.'

The second map is obviously not only NOT an accurate representation of the route, but not INTENDED to be accurate ... it is an 'infographic' and meant to indicate a general link, rather than a specific route.

The third map is obviously accurate ... for WW1 ... but is accurate in that it shows the route followed.

Note: Just because an old, more or less contemporary, map shows a rail link does NOT, sadly, in my experience, actually mean an ACTUAL link was there or, if it was, that it was active and, if the latter, that it had significant capacity.

Yugoslavia is a case in point ... I found a map of the German plans for the invasion online and a map showing RR lines but, more importantly, there was a written account of the shortcomings of each RR line. Suffice it to say that some of the lines terminated at points well outside the country when in WarPlan they are shown as linked, others ran on routes that were quite ridiculously wrong, and the ones that existed more often than not had VERY restricted capacities.

One key problem with WarPlan is that the RR capacity of the *capturing* country applies, immediately, to any capture country, even if the captured country's RR cap was MUCH lower than that of the capturing country ... reality dictates that this is complete rubbish (unless you're the Allies, in which case it isn't ... quite ... suffice it to say, the Allies [the US mostly] had the industrial capacity to increase RR capacity by providing extra rolling stock and locos as well as building or rebuilding rail, maintenance and other support infrastructure on a *massive* basis while German and the Axis in general ... DIDN'T).

Phil McGregor

[AlvaroSousa]

I do the best with what I got to make a fun game. No one wants to micro-manage rail road cars.... or calculating enough water to make pasta for the Italians in the desert.

[aspqrz02]

Indeed, I get that.

That said, putting rail links where they actually didn't exist AT ALL, or running along routes they NEVER ran on as opposed to those they ACTUALLY ran along is, really, unacceptable.

There are ways around, for example, the rubbish rail capacity in Syria ... turn all Syrian RR hexes into road hexes is the perfect solution ... so in that case the RR capacity of potential German conquest is irrelevant, as there ISN'T any capacity, which more closely models reality.

That way you don't get ridiculous situations where an entire German Russia-level Army Group with multiple mechanised units is being supplied through Turkey into the Middle East ... which simply Was. Not. Possible.

Phil McGregor

[PanzerMike]

Right now now I am at this picture:


-There is no direct connection at Istanbul.
-There is a direct connection between Istanbul and Baghdad, despite the fact that its capacity was limited.
-There is no direct connection from Erzurum to the USSR, I decided to make it a road instead representing the gauge change at Erzurum and the limited capacity.
-There is a road from Trabzom to Erzurum to Tabriz
Although there was some motor traffic between Trebizond and Erzerum (and possibly Tabriz) during the early 1920s, the journey was a
highly adventurous one, as those who have read Colonel A. Rawlinson's Adventures in the Near East will recollect. It was not until 1931 that the
Turkish Government, anxious to recapture its lost transit trade, started to convert the old caravan route into a first-class motor highway. Although
work on this road is still in progress—for there have been immense physical difficulties to overcome as well as war-time shortages of manpower—
it is well on the way to becoming one of the best motor roads in the Near East, with the added attraction of passing through some of the
finest mountain scenery in Turkey. With its easy gradients, wide bends and strong bridges of reinforced concrete, it has for some years been
capable of taking fully loaded commercial vehicles, and in 1937 a regular passenger and freight bus service was inaugurated between
Trebizond (Trabzon) and the Persian frontier, while in 1940-41 the Germans were able to use the road to bring lorry loads of Persian cotton to Trebizond (Trabzon), whence it could be shipped to Europe without fear of interference from our naval blockade.
- There is now the Hopa (at the border with the USSR, just south of Batumi) - Kars road
The Hopa-Kars road, almost 100 miles farther east as the crow flies, is the only other motor road leading into the interior from the coast, and
was originally built by the Russians after their acquisition of the districts of Batum, Artvin, Ardahan and Kars under the Treaty of Berlin. When
in 1921 Turkey regained the last three districts by her Treaty of Kars with Soviet Russia, the road, except for the first few miles from Batum,
ran exclusively through Turkish territory. In the 1930s the Turks built a motor road from Hopa across the coastal mountains to Borçka, where it
joined the road to Kars, since when the Batum-Borçka section has been allowed to fall into disrepair, as for many years there has been virtually
no communication between Russia and Turkey along this part of their frontier.
I travelled the length of this road in October, 1941, spending two nights at Ardahan and one on the Yaliniz Çam Pass on the way, and
was impressed by the comparatively good condition of the surface, though, as there is no maintenance system in operation, I got the
impression that, in view of the very small amount of motor traffic using the road, it would soon suffer from neglect.

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
No one wants to micro-manage rail road cars...

Ticket To Ride - Europe WWII? [;)]

[aspqrz02]

Direct connection from Istanbul to Baghdad?

(Allowing as it's not from the European side of Istanbul)

Really depends on what you call 'direct' ...

You had to change trains at Aleppo or the Turkish Syrian Border.

You had to change trains at the Syrian-Iraq Border.

You had to change trains at Mosul because the track to Baghdad from there was Meter gauge not Standard Gauge.

You might be able to supply an Infantry Corps or three (Axis, that is) in northern Iraq, barely ... but anything more is pure fantasy ... a bad thing for a game which touts itself as having such an accurate logistics model, I would have thought.

Also note that the road from Baghdad to Amman didn't exist (or didn't exist as a major road, which is what 'roads' represent, surely) ... the route ran to Haditha (roughly 3 hexes NNW of Baghdad) then from there SW to the Jordanian Border THEN west to Amman.

Also note that there is a Meter gauge rail line from Baghdad to Kut and NO road (in the same sense as above) from Kut southeast.

I am pretty sure that, by 1939, the line from Amman to the south was no longer operational and, indeed, as far as I can tell, the tracks had been ripped up, stations and other infrastructure slighted.

Likewise, I am pretty sure that the RR line showing a connection between Haifa and Syria also didn't exist in a functional way, if at all.

Phil McGregor

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
No one wants to micro-manage rail road cars

But it WOULD be a good thing if the RR capacity of a country remained whatever it was before it was conquered AFTER it was conquered ...

So if the Axis conquers Country A which has an abysmal RR capacity of, say, 10, then that's all that can be shipped over the rail lines in that country regardless of Germany's capacity.

For the Balkans, Middle East and Iberian Peninsula this would be a good thing ...

But, yeah, it wouldn't make for a 'fun' game that allows the Axis to easily conquer the world.

Phil McGregor

[PanzerMike]

I also used this:


You are right about the Badhdad to Kut rail, it is on this map also. I will change that. Good call.
Something like this:


And yes the definition of "direct" regarding the line Istanbul to Baghdad is gamewise: in the game it is treated as a direct line (despite all the transfers that were necessary). Yes was is of limited capacity, but I chose to do it this way.

About the the line from Amman to the south and the connection between Haifa and Syria, I have not really looked into that yet. If you have stuff on this, let me know!

And I appreciate your input!

[aspqrz02]

No road from Kut south east.

For the Hejaz Rail line see ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hejaz_rai ... rld_War_II

... but read the section on the 1960's, immediately below, which states that the line south of the Jordanian border was defunct by the 1920's.

The ripping up of the rails and slighting of the infrastructure ... I read that, somewhere, a long while ago ... but I cannot remember where, exactly.

Still, non-op for WW2.

Also, my information is that the 'road' north of Tehran to the Caspian and thence along the Caspian to the twin ports to the west was actually a Rail line ... and those twin ports were major shipping ports for supplying Russia before the through RR line was completed.

Phil McGregor

Phil

[ago1000]

Looks awesome.
I'm wondering in early game, if Russia can declare war on Turkey? Maybe script needs to be added if Russia were to conquer Turkey. Just a thought.
The rail line is a very cool idea.

[aspqrz02]

Sure, allow Russia to DoW Turkey ... but cut off UK and US Lend Lease to Russia.

That and the reality of the lack of infrastructure to ALLOW such an invasion (if reality sucks for the Axis it is equally sucky for the Russians) should make it as sucky a decision as it should be.

Phil McGregor