OT: Corona virus

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Chickenboy
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: obvert

Any charts that correct for per capita cases, obvert? The United States is the third most populous country in the world. Comparing raw case numbers for the trajectory compared to a place like Switzerland with less than 10% of our population seems spurious.
Why spurious? China and India are here too.

The interest for me, and this may just be for me, is to see the doubling rate, which is not different depending on population , right?

It's all spurious since we don't know anything about "real numbers" but if this does show evidence of the curves, the trajectories, the successes and more difficult areas, then it's useful as a comparative tool.

It's more useful when you have some knowledge of testing programs and other factors as we do on this thread. So I see it as one of the tools, not a comprehensive one. Maybe one could be designed with every interesting factor, but I think it could become more difficult to read quickly.

So as the US stays above the doubling every three day curve we know that is because to the recent surge in testing, and when it dips under that it'll be likely that it's heading toward the peak of the curve.

I'd rather see raw case numbers per capita to account for larger populations and avoid the extrapolation from small sample sizes/small population countries. By looking at 'cumulative numbers of confirmed cases' on the X axis and 'number of days since 100th case' on the Y, it gives a picture that-without accounting for vastly different populations-is misleading.

If you replaced the raw numbers X axis with a per capita numbers, the US curve would look very different (lower) than Spain, France, Germany or most of the other countries sandwiched into that upper graph major band. Of course, China's curve would be significantly lower too. Italy and Spain would remain standouts.

I think you miss the point. The curve in relation to the total population is not what this is trying to show. that is some other visual I've not seen. interesting, sure, but this is about doubling speed of the virus cases. So comparing countries without population totals is actually just fine for that.

It's entirely possible to draw different conclusions from the same data displayed. It's not that I think the chart is inaccurate, but I don't think the data displayed adequately support the conclusion that the average end user is likely to draw from it. I think most users would look at this graph and try to glean 'how much is a given country in a problematic situation' based upon the curve. I don't think the mathematical curiosity about doubling speed of the virus cases (particularly with all the known confounders about the verity of this data) is as endearing as other fundamentals that are population adjusted. Your mileage may vary.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Third most populace? China and India are one and two, and isn't Russia number three?

Not even close, Comrade.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-pop ... y-country/
I am beginning to wonder about the provenance of Worldometer figures. There were questions here about the COVID-19 figures and graphs. On Russia, I remember seeing a population figure of around 350 million - that was after the Soviet Union broke up too.
Worldometer also shows a larger land area for US than Canada when other references I have seen for many years say Canada is larger in area.

So the question is - who sponsors Worldometer, what is its expertise and sources of information and what fact-checking is done before they put stuff up? This could be a couple of guys publishing any old thing to get the advertising revenue rather than provide a solid source.

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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Third most populace? China and India are one and two, and isn't Russia number three?

Not even close, Comrade.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-pop ... y-country/
I am beginning to wonder about the provenance of Worldometer figures. There were questions here about the COVID-19 figures and graphs. On Russia, I remember seeing a population figure of around 350 million - that was after the Soviet Union broke up too.
Worldometer also shows a larger land area for US than Canada when other references I have seen for many years say Canada is larger in area.

So the question is - who sponsors Worldometer, what is its expertise and sources of information and what fact-checking is done before they put stuff up? This could be a couple of guys publishing any old thing to get the advertising revenue rather than provide a solid source.

Why use anything but Wikipedia for these sorts of things?
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Third most populace? China and India are one and two, and isn't Russia number three?

Not even close, Comrade.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-pop ... y-country/
I am beginning to wonder about the provenance of Worldometer figures. There were questions here about the COVID-19 figures and graphs. On Russia, I remember seeing a population figure of around 350 million - that was after the Soviet Union broke up too.
Worldometer also shows a larger land area for US than Canada when other references I have seen for many years say Canada is larger in area.

So the question is - who sponsors Worldometer, what is its expertise and sources of information and what fact-checking is done before they put stuff up? This could be a couple of guys publishing any old thing to get the advertising revenue rather than provide a solid source.

Nah. I've seen other population estimates close enough to these from multiple sources. Perhaps the former Soviet Union had circa 350MM population before its breakup, but no longer.

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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy




Not even close, Comrade.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-pop ... y-country/
I am beginning to wonder about the provenance of Worldometer figures. There were questions here about the COVID-19 figures and graphs. On Russia, I remember seeing a population figure of around 350 million - that was after the Soviet Union broke up too.
Worldometer also shows a larger land area for US than Canada when other references I have seen for many years say Canada is larger in area.

So the question is - who sponsors Worldometer, what is its expertise and sources of information and what fact-checking is done before they put stuff up? This could be a couple of guys publishing any old thing to get the advertising revenue rather than provide a solid source.

Why use anything but Wikipedia for these sorts of things?
Right, I already added the Wikipedia screenshot to my post.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

Everyday for the past few days the power will pop at least once, necessitating resetting of electric clocks, etc. I live in the heart of TVA.

I surmise that "sheltering in" is putting a heavy load on the grid.






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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy




Not even close, Comrade.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-pop ... y-country/
I am beginning to wonder about the provenance of Worldometer figures. There were questions here about the COVID-19 figures and graphs. On Russia, I remember seeing a population figure of around 350 million - that was after the Soviet Union broke up too.
Worldometer also shows a larger land area for US than Canada when other references I have seen for many years say Canada is larger in area.

So the question is - who sponsors Worldometer, what is its expertise and sources of information and what fact-checking is done before they put stuff up? This could be a couple of guys publishing any old thing to get the advertising revenue rather than provide a solid source.

Why use anything but Wikipedia for these sorts of things?

OK. Here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... population

Russia still in 9th place.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Third most populace? China and India are one and two, and isn't Russia number three?

Not even close, Comrade.
I am beginning to wonder about the provenance of Worldometer figures. There were questions here about the COVID-19 figures and graphs. On Russia, I remember seeing a population figure of around 350 million - that was after the Soviet Union broke up too.
Worldometer also shows a larger land area for US than Canada when other references I have seen for many years say Canada is larger in area.

So the question is - who sponsors Worldometer, what is its expertise and sources of information and what fact-checking is done before they put stuff up? This could be a couple of guys publishing any old thing to get the advertising revenue rather than provide a solid source.

The worldometers numbers match the Johns Hopkins ones to a T. Actually more accurate, since the hackers are all focused on screwing with Johns Hopkins. Plus they list the source of their information every day AND archive it so you can go back in time and check the source data. Good luck doing that with JH.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Third most populace? China and India are one and two, and isn't Russia number three?

Not even close, Comrade.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-pop ... y-country/
I am beginning to wonder about the provenance of Worldometer figures. There were questions here about the COVID-19 figures and graphs. On Russia, I remember seeing a population figure of around 350 million - that was after the Soviet Union broke up too.
Worldometer also shows a larger land area for US than Canada when other references I have seen for many years say Canada is larger in area.

So the question is - who sponsors Worldometer, what is its expertise and sources of information and what fact-checking is done before they put stuff up? This could be a couple of guys publishing any old thing to get the advertising revenue rather than provide a solid source.

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Dude. Your chart is of area (land mass) of countries ranked. Russia is really big. But I was referring to population sizes, not land mass.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Dude. Your chart is of area (land mass) of countries ranked. Russia is really big. But I was referring to population sizes, not land mass.

BBfanboy, you can borrow this:



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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy




Not even close, Comrade.

I am beginning to wonder about the provenance of Worldometer figures. There were questions here about the COVID-19 figures and graphs. On Russia, I remember seeing a population figure of around 350 million - that was after the Soviet Union broke up too.
Worldometer also shows a larger land area for US than Canada when other references I have seen for many years say Canada is larger in area.

So the question is - who sponsors Worldometer, what is its expertise and sources of information and what fact-checking is done before they put stuff up? This could be a couple of guys publishing any old thing to get the advertising revenue rather than provide a solid source.

Dude. Your chart is of area (land mass) of countries ranked. Russia is really big. But I was referring to population sizes, not land mass.
And I was questioning whether we could trust worldometer based on my observation about surface area putting the US second in size when I was sure Canada was bigger in surface area. So I searched that fact to see if I was mistaken and the Wiki site came up first. I was about to search Wiki on populations.

Edit: From Wikipedia - The population numbers for Russia are slightly higher (146,745,098) than Worldometer and the numbers for the US slightly lower (329 million), but close enough to say Worldometer is not making it up. I must have been remembering the post-Soviet Union bloc called Confederation of Independent States.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
so, unsure if this was posted last week and I'm not digging through the thread for it, but worth reposting even if it was: https://projects.propublica.org/graphic ... -hospitals

Interesting. Decades of managed health and squeezing out 'excess capacity' from expensive hospitals hard at work. My dad was CFO of a number of managed health operations in California in the 1980s and 1990s. His tales of 'cost cutting' (read: hospital surge capacity cutting / 'cutting beds') back then have continued. I wonder if this episode will rekindle a national interest in developing standing capacity for the long run or if we'll just keep on the same path...
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

"Worldometer shows estimated current numbers based on statistics and projections from the most reputable official organizations.

Our sources include the United Nations Population Division, World Health Organization (WHO), Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), International Monetary Fund (IMF), and World Bank.

We analyze the available data, perform statistical analysis, and build our algorithm which feeds the real time estimate.

Our counters have been licensed for the United Nations Conference Rio+20, BBC News, U2 concert, World Expo, and prestigious museums and events worldwide."

"We try to be as accurate as possible. For each set of statistics we perform extensive research and data mining in order to bring the most authoritative, comprehensive, and timely information to be displayed on the live counters.

As with any statistic, the numbers are not expected to be exact to the single digit, but to provide a fairly accurate and informative description of a phenomenon. This inherited limitation must be taken into account for the correct interpretation of the information.

Worldometer is cited as a source in over 10,000 published books, in more than 6,000 professional journal articles, and in over 1000 Wikipedia pages.

Worldometer was voted as one of the best free reference websites by the American Library Association (ALA), the oldest and largest library association in the world."






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RE: OT: Corona virus

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"Worldometer is run by an international team of developers, researchers, and volunteers with the goal of making world statistics available in a thought-provoking and time relevant format to a wide audience around the world.

Worldometer is owned by Dadax, an independent company. We have no political, governmental, or corporate affiliation."






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RE: OT: Corona virus

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As Dadax we have deep domain expertise with unmatched experience in different industries, we know how to choose right technologies and tools to solve problems and make better systems.

As Dadax we create smart software, we built turnkey systems and we share great products, to best optimize the industries we serve. We are committed to helping every customer become a best-run business.

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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
And I was questioning whether we could trust worldometer based on my observation about surface area putting the US second in size when I was sure Canada was bigger in surface area. So I searched that fact to see if I was mistaken and the Wiki site came up first. I was about to search Wiki on populations.

"Surface area" = land mass plus coastal and territorial waterways OR

"Surface area" = land mass only?

Canada is larger by overall territorial claims than the United States. But if you take out Hudson Bay (it's mostly water [;)]) and other lakes and coastal waterways from 'land mass' and separate out land mass alone, Canada is slightly smaller the United States. Seems pretty straightforward.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
so, unsure if this was posted last week and I'm not digging through the thread for it, but worth reposting even if it was: https://projects.propublica.org/graphic ... -hospitals

Interesting. Decades of managed health and squeezing out 'excess capacity' from expensive hospitals hard at work. My dad was CFO of a number of managed health operations in California in the 1980s and 1990s. His tales of 'cost cutting' (read: hospital surge capacity cutting / 'cutting beds') back then have continued. I wonder if this episode will rekindle a national interest in developing standing capacity for the long run or if we'll just keep on the same path...
Never underestimate the mendacity of bureaucrats, and their inability to learn. [8|]
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

Donald Trump Signs Executive Order to Prevent Hoarding, Price Gouging During Coronavirus Crisis
23 Mar 2020

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020 ... us-crisis/

"President Donald Trump signed an executive order on Monday to prevent hoarding and price gouging during the coronavirus crisis.

“This sends a strong message – we will not let those hoarding vital supplies and price gougers to harm the health of America in this hour of need,” White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham said in a statement.

The details of the executive order were not immediately made available to reporters, other than a photo of President Trump signing the order in the Oval Office with Attorney General Bill Barr at his side."






Zorch
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
And I was questioning whether we could trust worldometer based on my observation about surface area putting the US second in size when I was sure Canada was bigger in surface area. So I searched that fact to see if I was mistaken and the Wiki site came up first. I was about to search Wiki on populations.

"Surface area" = land mass plus coastal and territorial waterways OR

"Surface area" = land mass only?

Canada is larger by overall territorial claims than the United States. But if you take out Hudson Bay (it's mostly water [;)]) and other lakes and coastal waterways from 'land mass' and separate out land mass alone, Canada is slightly smaller the United States. Seems pretty straightforward.
Either way, it's larger than a breadbox and smaller than the egos of forum members.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
so, unsure if this was posted last week and I'm not digging through the thread for it, but worth reposting even if it was: https://projects.propublica.org/graphic ... -hospitals

Interesting. Decades of managed health and squeezing out 'excess capacity' from expensive hospitals hard at work. My dad was CFO of a number of managed health operations in California in the 1980s and 1990s. His tales of 'cost cutting' (read: hospital surge capacity cutting / 'cutting beds') back then have continued. I wonder if this episode will rekindle a national interest in developing standing capacity for the long run or if we'll just keep on the same path...
Never underestimate the mendacity of bureaucrats, and their inability to learn. [8|]

Oh, I don't blame the managed health groups for the inescapable trends towards efficiency over time. That's their mandate. If they don't do it, they go bankrupt. Period. Lots of them did in the managed care / hospital group bloodletting of the 80s and 90s. It's just that managed health groups' mandates-entirely legitimate-are not the same as a viable public health service run by the Federal or State government for the general public good.

If the Feds or individual states want to spend lots of money and manhours on keeping a viable public health surge capacity going that's up to them. It hasn't really been done in decades. Or they can buy/rent/force majeure parking garages, dilapidated malls and motels and the like when it's too late. [8|]
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