OT: Corona virus

[Chickenboy]

Dan,

Although I have appreciated participating in this thread for the past couple of weeks, I will be again taking a hiatus. Too much too much for the time being. Lemme know if you have any questions for me by PM. I'll catch up in a couple of weeks.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hey, Sammy, I understand the point he's making but it's wrong. Any American who shows up at an emergency room will be treated. Basically every American knows that (there are minimal exceptions). While some people may be reluctant to see care for some reasons, including economic, the fear from this pandemic is almost sure to overcome that. There will be very few Americans who aren't treated for Covid-19.

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What you wanna bet that there won't be 25% of Americans not receiving treatment for Covid-19? I bet 98% will. The other 2% (or whatever it happens to be) will likely be those who expire before they realized the severity or otherwise didn't seek medical attention. Everybody else, rich or poor, black and white and brown and red and yellow, conservative and progressive, athiest or religious, will receive medical care.

I think the problem is that it is very difficult to prove either way.

If you follow mind_messings viewpoint then potentially many of the most impoverished Americans will die of COV-19 at home having never accessed healthcare in the first place and potentially never being tested post-mortem. That supposition is impossible to prove either way at this point although I guess in the fullness of time looking at 'excess mortality' statistics might give an insight.

As before I'm not taking sides - just pointing out that the two of you will get nowhere with arguing about that point in particular and most likely with your dispute in general.

Mate I think you are both right to block each other as it seems from an outsider's perspective that you both have 'history' that is making what is already a very thorny topic impossible to negotiate.

I'll ask just one question - not rhetorical as I genuinely don't know the answer. If somebody spends 14 days in hospital (with say 4 days in critical care) in the US, how much is their bill likely to be at the end of it if they don't have health insurance?

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hey, Sammy, I understand the point he's making but it's wrong. Any American who shows up at an emergency room will be treated. Basically every American knows that (there are minimal exceptions). While some people may be reluctant to see care for some reasons, including economic, the fear from this pandemic is almost sure to overcome that. There will be very few Americans who aren't treated for Covid-19.

This is unequivocally a true statement. They show up in the ED with fever and cough they go to the sick "tent". They don't even go to intake. They need to be admitted, they get admitted. The hospitalist doctor takes over and almost never even pays attention to insurance until the time of discharge. They need the ICU they get the ICU. They need a vent, they get a vent. They need ECMO...which they pretty much can't get in most of the world...they get it. Illegal aliens...don't matter..they just have to show up and be sick enough

"American exceptionalism" is used here as an intentional insult. We can all see right through it.

[Cap Mandrake]

If somebody spends 14 days in hospital (with say 4 days in critical care) in the US, how much is their bill likely to be at the end of it if they don't have health insurance?

A lot. So do LA Clipper court side seats and Lamborghinis, neither of which are taxpayer funded

[Canoerebel]

Darn, I hate to lose Chickenboy's input. The opening post in this thread encouraged his participation. He had chimed in with some terrific early insights (go back and read pages 1 and 2). I think once or twice he gave thoughts that, under later info, he thought weren't quite right. He modified them. Once, he apologized for a mis-prediction. He's a smart guy with strong opinions and integrity.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What you wanna bet that there won't be 25% of Americans not receiving treatment for Covid-19? I bet 98% will. The other 2% (or whatever it happens to be) will likely be those who expire before they realized the severity or otherwise didn't seek medical attention. Everybody else, rich or poor, black and white and brown and red and yellow, conservative and progressive, athiest or religious, will receive medical care.

I think the problem is that it is very difficult to prove either way.

If you follow mind_messings viewpoint then potentially many of the most impoverished Americans will die of COV-19 at home having never accessed healthcare in the first place and potentially never being tested post-mortem. That supposition is impossible to prove either way at this point although I guess in the fullness of time looking at 'excess mortality' statistics might give an insight.

As before I'm not taking sides - just pointing out that the two of you will get nowhere with arguing about that point in particular and most likely with your dispute in general.

Within the context of COVID, you're probably right.

However, it's not a large leap to make that supposition:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2775760/

Essentially, not being insured is linked with mortality. Granted, correlation is not causation and there's likely a LOT of factors involved.

When considering the demographics of the uninsured, as posted previously:

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/ ... sured.html

"So who were the uninsured? They tended to be 19 to 64 years old, male, have less than a high school education and/or have lower incomes."

I'm not convinced by that first article to be honest. If we go off their headline figure of 45k deaths being a result of lack of health insurance in 2005 then that would say that out of the 2.4m deaths in the US in 2005 2% were due to lack of health insurance. Put the other way 98% would have died whether they were insured or not.

I've said before - I'm not a scientist by training and may well be misunderstanding the statistics.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hey, Sammy, I understand the point he's making but it's wrong. Any American who shows up at an emergency room will be treated. Basically every American knows that (there are minimal exceptions). While some people may be reluctant to see care for some reasons, including economic, the fear from this pandemic is almost sure to overcome that. There will be very few Americans who aren't treated for Covid-19.

This is unequivocally a true statement. They show up in the ED with fever and cough they go to the sick "tent". They don't even go to intake. They need to be admitted, they get admitted. The hospitalist doctor takes over and almost never even pays attention to insurance until the time of discharge. They need the ICU they get the ICU. They need a vent, they get a vent. They need ECMO...which they pretty much can't get in most of the world...they get it. Illegal aliens...don't matter..they just have to show up and be sick enough

"American exceptionalism" is used here as an intentional insult. We can all see right through it.

Emphasis mine.

[RFalvo69]

IIUC, President Trump said that all treatments for Coronavirus patients will be free, and that he already reached an agreement with "two of the biggest companies" in the US.

He said this during one of the daily press briefing. Maybe I misunderstood, but then I found this link.

https://www.ahip.org/health-insurance-p ... -covid-19/

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive




I think the problem is that it is very difficult to prove either way.

If you follow mind_messings viewpoint then potentially many of the most impoverished Americans will die of COV-19 at home having never accessed healthcare in the first place and potentially never being tested post-mortem. That supposition is impossible to prove either way at this point although I guess in the fullness of time looking at 'excess mortality' statistics might give an insight.

As before I'm not taking sides - just pointing out that the two of you will get nowhere with arguing about that point in particular and most likely with your dispute in general.

Within the context of COVID, you're probably right.

However, it's not a large leap to make that supposition:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2775760/

Essentially, not being insured is linked with mortality. Granted, correlation is not causation and there's likely a LOT of factors involved.

When considering the demographics of the uninsured, as posted previously:

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/ ... sured.html

"So who were the uninsured? They tended to be 19 to 64 years old, male, have less than a high school education and/or have lower incomes."

I'm not convinced by that first article to be honest. If we go off their headline figure of 45k deaths being a result of lack of health insurance in 2005 then that would say that out of the 2.4m deaths in the US in 2005 2% were due to lack of health insurance. Put the other way 98% would have died whether they were insured or not.

I've said before - I'm not a scientist by training and may well be misunderstanding the statistics.

So yes, in the grand scheme of 2.5 million (that can die of any cause) it appears proportionally small.

The article puts it in to context as being more die that die of not having insurance than do of kidney disease. That's serious in my view.

There's also a point to be made about that being at the extreme end of the spectrum. Likely a great deal of years lost from aversion to accessing healthcare due to cost concerns with some conditions that this study wouldn't have coveted. I'll have a dig tomorrow to see if there's research on this specific area (almost certain to be, public health pros live for this stuff).

[Sammy5IsAlive]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

If somebody spends 14 days in hospital (with say 4 days in critical care) in the US, how much is their bill likely to be at the end of it if they don't have health insurance?

A lot. So do LA Clipper court side seats and Lamborghinis, neither of which are taxpayer funded

Like I said earlier I think that is the brick wall that we may well run into discussing this. From my own cultural perspective seeing an equivalence between healthcare provision and the price of a sports ticket or a car seems crazy. Perhaps from your perspective seeing full healthcare as being a universal right and not a commodity with a price is just as alien.

It's probably best that we drop it - I came to this thread because the Covid-19 thread on my 'home forum' in the UK had become pretty poisonous and the last thing I want to do is drag this down similar roads.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

IIUC, President Trump said that all treatments for Coronavirus patients will be free, and that he already reached an agreement with "two of the biggest companies" in the US.

He said this during one of the daily press briefing. Maybe I misunderstood, but then I found this link.

https://www.ahip.org/health-insurance-p ... -covid-19/

I think that this policy is even being considered, let alone implemented is sufficient evidence to rest my case.

I would be curious to find out about the evaluation underpinning the policy and what impact it has.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Emphasis mine.

Look, amigo, your post has no verb. Secondly, other than hydration and fever control, there is no proven effective outpatient treatment for Covid-19.

Water is essentially free, acetaminophen is about $2.50 for 500 tabs. If Remdesisvir or even chloroquine helps that would be a different matter. In that case it is a clear public health benefit.

This is an interesting discussion because of the international input but if you want to get in your snarky pseudo-professorial anti-American digs do it somewhere else because you will get the thread locked.

[Cap Mandrake]

I think that this policy is even being considered, let alone implemented is sufficient evidence to rest my case.

Better yet, rest your mouth for a while.

[RFalvo69]

More news about the USS Theodore Roosevelt situation.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/01/poli ... index.html

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hey, Sammy, I understand the point he's making but it's wrong. Any American who shows up at an emergency room will be treated. Basically every American knows that (there are minimal exceptions). While some people may be reluctant to see care for some reasons, including economic, the fear from this pandemic is almost sure to overcome that. There will be very few Americans who aren't treated for Covid-19.

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive




I think the problem is that it is very difficult to prove either way.

If you follow mind_messings viewpoint then potentially many of the most impoverished Americans will die of COV-19 at home having never accessed healthcare in the first place and potentially never being tested post-mortem. That supposition is impossible to prove either way at this point although I guess in the fullness of time looking at 'excess mortality' statistics might give an insight.

As before I'm not taking sides - just pointing out that the two of you will get nowhere with arguing about that point in particular and most likely with your dispute in general.

Mate I think you are both right to block each other as it seems from an outsider's perspective that you both have 'history' that is making what is already a very thorny topic impossible to negotiate.

I'll ask just one question - not rhetorical as I genuinely don't know the answer. If somebody spends 14 days in hospital (with say 4 days in critical care) in the US, how much is their bill likely to be at the end of it if they don't have health insurance?

It would cost nothing if they were poor enough. I know someone who spent seventeen days in the hospital, including several days in isolation but no ICU. At first, a RN, a LPN, and an aide. Then just a RN and an aide for care. Then, 16.5+ months in a nursing home with therapy. Then, 14 months in assisted living. The first 2 days in the hospital were covered by an organization that I won't name here. The only thing paid by that individual was the room and board part of the assisted living. This also covered some surgeries as well. No or little payments for drugs either.

[RangerJoe]

quote:

I think that this policy is even being considered, let alone implemented is sufficient evidence to rest my case.


Better yet, rest your mouth for a while.

+1

[Olorin]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hey, Sammy, I understand the point he's making but it's wrong. Any American who shows up at an emergency room will be treated. Basically every American knows that (there are minimal exceptions). While some people may be reluctant to see care for some reasons, including economic, the fear from this pandemic is almost sure to overcome that. There will be very few Americans who aren't treated for Covid-19.

This is unequivocally a true statement. They show up in the ED with fever and cough they go to the sick "tent". They don't even go to intake. They need to be admitted, they get admitted. The hospitalist doctor takes over and almost never even pays attention to insurance until the time of discharge. They need the ICU they get the ICU. They need a vent, they get a vent. They need ECMO...which they pretty much can't get in most of the world...they get it. Illegal aliens...don't matter..they just have to show up and be sick enough

"American exceptionalism" is used here as an intentional insult. We can all see right through it.

Well, it seems the uninsured Americans are quite concerned.

"...44% of Americans declined to see a doctor due to cost, and why nearly a third of Americans polled said they didn’t get their prescriptions filled due to the high cost of their medicine."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -uninsured

[Sammy5IsAlive]

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

More news about the USS Theodore Roosevelt situation.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/01/poli ... index.html

Hope all is still well with you and yours RFalvo. I hope the last couple of pages of arguments are not too frustrating to you still living in the epicenter of this. I'm as guilty as anyone in terms of derailing this thread off of it's correct purpose.

Do you think the recent Italian numbers are as encouraging as they look from an outsider's perspective? In particular that so far there hasn't been the mushrooming of cases and deaths that we might have feared as the virus reached southern Italy?

Sadly in London it looks like we are going to go through something similar to what you have been experiencing - I am hopeful that with a couple more weeks of notice we might have been able to take a few more steps towards providing more 'ad hoc' critical care beds but I think that that advantage will be counterbalanced by the 'running on fumes' state the NHS has been in coming into this situation.

All the best to you and your family [:)]

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Olorin

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hey, Sammy, I understand the point he's making but it's wrong. Any American who shows up at an emergency room will be treated. Basically every American knows that (there are minimal exceptions). While some people may be reluctant to see care for some reasons, including economic, the fear from this pandemic is almost sure to overcome that. There will be very few Americans who aren't treated for Covid-19.

This is unequivocally a true statement. They show up in the ED with fever and cough they go to the sick "tent". They don't even go to intake. They need to be admitted, they get admitted. The hospitalist doctor takes over and almost never even pays attention to insurance until the time of discharge. They need the ICU they get the ICU. They need a vent, they get a vent. They need ECMO...which they pretty much can't get in most of the world...they get it. Illegal aliens...don't matter..they just have to show up and be sick enough

"American exceptionalism" is used here as an intentional insult. We can all see right through it.

Well, it seems the uninsured Americans are quite concerned.

"...44% of Americans declined to see a doctor due to cost, and why nearly a third of Americans polled said they didn’t get their prescriptions filled due to the high cost of their medicine."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -uninsured

That article is over a month old. Some of what is in there is true but more is a bunch of garbage in my opinion. I won't write any more because of the overtones.

[Olorin]

Sure, the article is garbage. Ignore it.